Technology Tree Example, plus feedback


#1

@joe

I made a mock up of a tech tree, one that really allows for an open ended style of play, as well as fits a more logical path of research. All of the underlined red techs are techs you start off with, and instead of everyone have the regular versions, they have small versions. Also, this assumes that small buildings will be up-gradable to regular buildings at some point. I also used human as the example here, since their tech tree resembles everyone else’s. The flow chart is UP, so for Goliath, I would need to research Scout, Macro Engineering, Nebula, the 3 above Nebula, and then I could go for Goliath. The idea here is stretching out Tier 1, Tier 2, etc so that while there is a lot of low end fast tech, there are a lot of middle pre-req techs to flesh out each tier.

Finally, I would like to say, there are 140-150 techs here, with Planetary Limits, and possibly diminishing returns. this example tree could last 6 to 12 months.

Please anyone, add feedback, this is just a rough draft, it uses 20 different techs that other people have suggested, as well as the combat guide techs to flesh it out a bit and make it look like something we might have in beta.

Thank you all for your time

EDIT: Would really like to see what the intentions are of the Tech tree, where they plan to go in the future, and what we can expect for Beta, and then release.


Better research descriptions
Recommendations & Feedback
Speeding up the beginning
#2

BTW, if you click on the image, open the image in another window/tab, it will allow you to see the full image just fine.


#3

Ought to find an app for clustering/brainstorming. I think that the resources should next branch down into trade and harvest as different roots leading to their own trees. Diplomacy a War/Fleet branches aren’t in there yet either, which is fine as there are no mechanics yet for any of these three (aside from battle formations and resource mines).


#4

After briefly glossing over the tree. Part of me feels that when you research a new shipyard you would also develop a new ship class.

Or more likely you design a larger/more complex ship class, and if your current infrastructure can’t encompass it, you would design a system that then would as a part of that effort.

I say this after imagining myself in one of our techies shoes. Without an overbearing foresight of what I’m developing etc. We as leaders would say “Hey, I want a new ship. These are the parameters, make it happen, do what you have to do.” Then by techie magic it happens.

For example, most ships would run along a similar chassis design. Modified as needed according to their class. Say Freighters and corvettes initially. So when you wanted to go larger the next tech would include say T2 freighters and the shipyard upgrades to allow a larger and/or more complex ship (because T2 is just the next level, doesn’t mean it’s bigger). From there you would then design frigates and other various T2 designs.

I just think that a breakthrough in engineering on these levels would come from a new hull requiring rather specific shipyard developments. It just feels very lucky to develop a shipyard that is able to encompass all future developments we technically don’t know about.

If not a dual tech maybe the order, a more realistic appreach feels that some or all hulls would be developed before the shipyard.

Just a thought, otherwise I can’t wait for a deeper tech tree that in the moment woud i force is is think about what and when we research.


#5

Looks interesting

hmn about mines. I disagree that small ones are basic. Small one represent more expensive building with lesser population thats due higher level of automatizaion. lot of work can be done by machine but cost is going up so it should be like t2 mine
booth mines should be able upgradable. right now small ones are good for nothing

I like seeing frigate as T2 :smiley:
With need to have large guns is good decision

For ships there should be basic research, specialized and lastly advanced
Basic - unlock chasis, unlock guns and module that you can use on other ship
Specialized - unlock done would be only for one ship or specialized class. like minelayer/destroyer/scout …
Advanced - unlock done would work only for one chasis. this should be cumulative and each level more and more costy. Each level adding like 2-5% effectivity. for guns/shield/engines/hulls …
That mean ther should be people that would use destroyers that should punch harder and have maybe better shield like 5-15% if they invest time for this

lets hope there will be like T1, T2, T3 variants for each guns
or shield T1 like 50MW shield for 50Mw energy and we have T2 shield with double output for same energy but here should be even effecient shield like 50MW shield for 25MW energy
More modules more variables mean more tactic

but lot of balancing :frowning:


#6

I think some need fleshing out a bit. Such as carrier modules should be more of a series of techs that lead to the generation of a base fighter, logistical capabilities and finally the base carrier module. I would envisage a series of upgrades for all 3 that allow for more advanced and faster fighters. Fighters should also be similar to ordnance (I have no carriers yet so dont know) if that they need constructing and be subject to attrition… if you lose 50% of fighters then you can only deploy the remaining 50% in the next battle. of course that could lead to the need for a fighter construction module and that could be added to the carrier or a support ship, and base resources used to create new fighters.

Energy should be a category in its own right.

If the population limits are based on size of planet and landmass then managing this is important and later game advances in reactor efficiency that require less workers could be a nice dynamic… Final tech level could be a series of upgrades to a dyson sphere where it would require significant effort to research and build around the star (50000k beron) but gives each planet 2000 power (maybe 5000) and only 5000 workers per power collector floating around the planet or T4 shipyard module.

This could be linked to technology to power a planetary shield… this shield would counter another weapon in the form of a mass packet… the shield could have many tiers and match offensive tech level with defensive tech level (like the cloaking tech in @Cheatle post) mass packets could be launched from remote planets at up to warp 9, so 900 tones of beron launched at a planet with no defense would be cleansed or have significant population loss.

From Stars! wiki : Mineral packets This is the most expensive (in minerals) way to hurt a planet. However, mineral packets can fly up to warp 16 even through minefields - the victim has less warning of the attack Also, they can kill a planet even if it has a starbase (with all other methods, you must destroy the base first). It is effective if the target planet has no defenses (or few defenses) and/or no mass driver. If you are Packet Physics, your better mass drivers and reduced decay make this form of attack more effective. Alternate reality races are immune to packet attacks, since they live in starbases. Also, anyone with warning of the incoming packet can intercept the packet and steal the minerals, or ‘dodge’ - load all the population into freighters and colonise the planet again next year. Packets don’t destroy factories and mines, but they do destroy defenses. Some of the minerals in the packet will be left on the surface.

Players can research the ability to collect these packets and then we have a mechanism for players to send resources to each other, e.g. for alliance collab or trading…

Clearly there is a lot of scope for future tech tree advancements over the years and I congratulate @Cheatle for a great starting point…


#7

Dyson sphere and planets are mostly not compatible.
ussualy in all scifi you deconstruct all planets and stellar bodies in solar system and using this mass you build dyson sphere around sun. Your ppl will be living on top of inside of your sphere.

Its very popular for living space and100% utility of Sun power. Only for very advanced and powerfull civilization

i dont think dyson sphere tech should exist for normal palyers. More like relict from OLD ONES. that can be captured.


#8

I’m not suggesting 100% collection, You’re talking YottaWatts of energy there and yes likely deconstruction of an entire solar system to construct what you say…

Initially a smaller structure would exist to collect energy and beam it back to the collectors around the planets.

This supplements power and not necessarily replace it.

It could be upgradeable

It can be captured, destroyed or deconstructed to gain back 45K beron…

I’m not suggesting that a solar system be deconstructed to create a ring world or other mega structure… but what you describe could happen in the game if they wanted it to, The advantages should be large and deconstruction could release a massive amount of finite resources. 100 % utilisation of a suns energy could allow for other ‘god’ technologies and modules… but again I’m not advocating this… If we need to stimilate late in the game then these advanced items could require a refocus on other tasks to gain the tech/research to do it… Only our imaginations are the limitof what could be added but the game should progress slowly and react to the game play that unfolds…


#9

I think that it can be either/or, because with a new shipyard, its much larger and can hold “dry dock” for much larger ships. So, even if they haven’t developed anything, there could be ideas in the pipe and they are creating a much large facility in prep.


#10

currently at 79 labs. Researching the hardest tech in 1 day. What’s you basis for making sure that the tech finishes in the time, and not before then? Would there be a research for acceleration of labs? Or is there diminishing returns for labs?


#11

In the ideal world there would be some way to limit them.

In a lot of 4X games they exponentially increase the techs as they go up, giving them almost their own level based on what is needed to get there. A lot of places you have to build research stations, or grab research points, so on and so forth, in some games there is only a limited number. Then you have games like EVE where you can research to make your intelligence higher, and you have implants, so on and so forth.

The idea is to make the techs take much much more time. The balance is to have enough tech fast enough to make the game fun, while keeping that carrot out in front of you.

I would have 2 limiting factors, 1) Planet Size you can only fit so much on a planet. 2) Diminishing returns.

I would have it so that you aren’t going to be able to just make a research planet, you will need the population support, farms, and power, and a planet only has so much size. I would also increase their prices more than they are now, by double. With diminishing returns, there would two levels. Level 1) The more labs you have on a planet the less bonus you get from every one after. Level 2) Each lab on a new planet is slightly less effective then the first one placed on your homeworld.

So home world would be like 1 RP, .9, .8, 7, .6 etc, then on a new world it would be .9, .8, .7, .6, on the third world it would be .8, .7, .6, .5 etc. This way it uses a lot of resources, but you can’t just blast your way to the top, like you are doing now.

These are just examples, it would probably be a deeper penalty. However there would likely be some tech that you could research to help these values. Increase your tech by .05 for each lab, another would stabilize it so that the least you get for a lab is like .01 (You could have gotten less without this tech), and maybe 1 tech for each tree, that gives a +.01 per lab to that type of tech. You can tech up fast in some areas, but not all areas if you want to stay competitive.

What it comes down to is that Labs should eat up a lot of resources and if you want to heavily invest in this, that is fine, but you shouldn’t get such a bonus that you leap so far ahead of everyone you can dominate based on research alone. We already have instances right now, where 1 ship can kill entire fleets, just because someone raced to the finish. There is a point with tech, that makes you so much better, it doesn’t matter as much if you are week in other areas. This will have to be balanced.


#12

Also, I do want to mention this, a very important aspect of the game.

Right now the Start, Middle, and End games are too fast. We are already through the Start and Middle in respects to the tech tree. A lot of us only have maybe 5-10 techs lefts and its finished.

Each level/tier of the game needs to be stretched out much much further. Tech 1 should last at least a month or two, Tech two at least 2-3 months, Tech 3 3-6 months, etc. Each level should attempt to last double to triple the amount of time of the last level. Also, there should be room to expand each level, add in new ships, new techs, so forth. It should be built to do this on any and all levels.

This is where the Fun vs Balanced factor comes in.

Things like the regular buildings, cargo, scouts, colonizers, and basic weapons should be extremely fast, while the next level up should be hours to days ( destroyers, medium weapons, engines, corvettes). After that the research value should triple, and triple again. Carriers should take more than just a couple days, they should be something like a week or two, balanced for people that might have pushed the limits of what they can do. We should have the opportunity to really be able to play with the ships we have, and master those, before moving on to the next set.

Destroyer/Corvette T1 maybe hours to 1-2 days, Tier 2 2 days to 1 week, Tier 3 1week to 2 weeks

That alone to get the 6 ships should be 30-40 days, not including all the techs in between. Also all these techs you see in the sample tree are to enrich and fluff out each tier giving something to strive for for the type of game play you like, and the type of ships/tech you like. They also set another limit to how fast you can tech, but its more designed to stretch out each Tier so that it feels full and it feels like you are hitting benchmarks within your race/the game.


#13

Perhaps you can get one point per planet once it gets above a certain population (at the point where it’s deemed a core world and no longer a simple colony). Then as resources allow you can build a lab to improve the planets research supply, or as other games do like Sins of Solar Empire, it enables new tech. Adding in a credit cost, and other techs to say either reduce future tech costs or increasing your production.

That way it can tie in research growth with your empire growth but still be limited. As you wouldn’t be able to fill planets with research facilities, and simply colonising planets wouldn’t get you the research points. You would have to develop colonies into integral components of your Empire.

Thoughts?


#14

Planets have a limiting factor to do with size and landmass… I’m not sure that setting a hard limit for the number of research stations sits well with me, I think the balance has to be that the higher techs are really really expensive… so if you want to gain the techs you would say have to commit say 40% of your planet space to research, the offset of that is that you cant generate and support as many ships…

Farsu mines vs research…

or beron vs research if you want to expand your planet base…

it might not seem like it matters currently and thats because we havent hit any limits on a planet… from what we discussed yesterday when you max population that population can only support a finite number of buildings

We could have diminishing returns… such that 100 are 100% and then 100 at 80% and 100 at 60% and so on until say rest are at 20%… That makes sense… I love how my project manager thinks if they doubled the number of devs you magically cut the delivery date in half… doesnt work like that… there are diminished returns due to clashes in story dependencies and merge conflict etc… so I fully support that kind of model.

Currently 1 research station is roughly equivalent to 3 mines based on time and resources. so 100 research will mean you have 300 mines less at about 600 resources an hour… If this difference was closer to 10 making a research station cost around 3 times more then the lost resources is higher at close to 2000 resources an hour…

It would slow down the early game unless we allow more planetary deposits (I think we’ve talked before about doubling of tripling) it would clearly make a choice in strategic terms… better ships but fewer than someone a tech lower with many times your numbers…


#15

Planets population cap is currently a bit lack luster, also I didn’t mention limiting how many labs you could make.

Yes, I fully support diminishing returns and high tech times, at each apparent tech level increase.

I think they should be more expensive, but I don’t think it will slow the early game if early tech is adjusted in the right direction. It will then be on the person to gimp themselves if they really want to pump out tech.


#16

Or find friends happy to provide cover while the research booms.


#17

@Cheatle and I have been working on this. Disclaimer: techs illustrated may or may not represent actual technologies intended; the purpose of this image is to suggest a rough model of the first layer of complexities for the tech tree.


Weapons and ships research
Endgame use for research labs
#18

Seen that last tree before but haven’t had a chance to go through it all. Here’s a few comments in general based on various things I saw through the thread:

ENERGY yes, should be it’s own path. There are so many things to open up here.
ORBITALS should be a building type and there should be a bunch. Shipyard yes but also defensive structures, solar microwave stations, etc. These should be an advanced tech and there will need to be an added “orbital space” value.
DYSON SPHERES and ringworlds would be fantastic “found” items, but probably would be good to make them rare and not buildable by us. They could have huge useable mass, some kind of environmental bonus, research bonus, and a bunch of advanced tech already in place. Would make them great points for combat as people try to take them over.
LAND MASS will be a huge limiting factor assuming the devs can build this in. This is a lever that forces we the players to make decisions rather than just dump hundreds of buildings on a planet with .07% useable land. :slight_smile: It would help to slow mid and late game as well.
MINES have a lot of potential. You can have basic mines that are small and don’t pull as much out. You can also have highly advanced mines that are super expensive, also small (so they take up less of the valuable land) and pull more. Mine miniaturization would be a great thing.

I may start another thread just on game pacing.


Game pacing, expansion, and construction
#19

Also back with the topic of a dyson sphere if it does enclose a star all planets within that system would become cold lifeless rocks as their heat source has been blocked basicly


#20

Can’t build one that close to the star has to be much further out. Would be using the planets for massive amounts of material anyway.