Stop building so many laboratories


#1

This is all mankind specific advice, take it with a grain of salt but I’ve had a look at the numbers and this is some of the best advice i can give you based on them.

Laboratories do not make your empire great, you do not need to research everything, they are an expensive building, 25,000 population just for it alone, then add the extra 5,000 because it requires a PowerStation.

Once you build them you’re likely not going to demolish them, ever, you’ll upgrade them but their a permanent sunken cost.

For the same pop you can build 10 mines and a power station. This will help your empire far more in the long run then a single lab which generates 1 science an hour. Mines give you a great return on investment.

I generate roughly 50 science an hour, my maths later on is based on this. Preliminary data from my survey shows that this is about the medium, on average synthis players generating more science than other races.

Science is not a focus of mine it has never been and never was, if i have some spare resources i might build a few but by focusing so much on building such an expensive building you are hurting your empire long term, it doesn’t matter if you can have unlocked a shipyard 3 or 4 if you don’t have the resources or infrastructure to build it.

The total cost of all tech trees except weapons and ships is 59,290.3 tech or about 50 days of research time for me. If you make some smart decisions you can easily cut that down to 4,040.4, which ends up at about 81 hours of research time for me. what did I cut out? A large majority of the top upgrades, many have a large research requirements for minimal net gain.

A fair few of the techs you can just not bother with to save time and resources, deep mining, forget about it, planet modification past the first one? not needed.

Simply by not researching tactical coordination and shipyard 4 you save 22,500 research points. 5000 if you don’t research deep mining for F, B, L and Z.

Full farm automation, social theories and megalopolises with their 5 hour upgrade time and high resource cost do not provide a worthwhile return on investment unless you have a planet that is running out of population to spare.

The key thing to take away is; Look at your empire, create a plan and research the tech that will give you the greatest return on investment.


#4

This is all I needed to see. Please, follow this advice. I’ll see you in a couple of weeks.


#5

Many have reported deep mining not working at the moment, it will be patched in future updates but the gain from it is not worth it for most resources.

Deep olzine mining is only 300 research and worth the input on larger planet with a million or more olzine, but apart from that I do not believe it is worth it.

Firstly it costs 6,250 credits per mine, 2,000 beron isn’t much but doubling undesirable to -0.1 means you need to build more entertainment centers or lower taxes, and with a 5 hour build time I do not believe the 36 resource per hour is worth the investment.

A transport fleet from a planet rich in that resource is a lot more effective.


#6

It might work in your case.
But a lot of people already struggel with getting ressources since there arent a lot mineable planet deposits and therefor are in need for Deep mines.
This suggestion or more like tip of yours only will work when you started in an environment full of good planet deposits


#7

When you get around to researching Deep mining, after you saved … whatever, you’ll find out what works and what doesn’t. Also, the planets with “a million or more” olzine don’t need deep mining to be worth it. You clearly don’t know anything about deep mining.

Enjoy your barren planets and exploits in the meantime.


#8

I am not exploiting the system if that is what you’re implying, My growth is entirely natural and actually being hampered by bugs on multiple systems. as shown below.

I practise what i preach and i’m sure that if you put in the same effort and time as me and followed advice i have given then you could achieve the same results, i have been completely open about my strategies and trends i have seen.

7


#9

I’m doing just fine, and I’ll still be doing just fine when my deep mines are producing while you’re preaching about not researching them, or whatever.

Have a nice day.


#10

To any player reading this thread, new or old, follow this mans advice at your own peril.


#11

One thing i like about this alpha 3 is that you dont absolutely need everything on the tree. You can slide with lvl 1 resesrch centers, lvl 1 mines for a bit of time. You can slide with any lvl weapons you want. You dont absolutely need to research top tier things. Im sticking at 25 to 30 research for a while.


#12

I think most people don’t need 100+ RPs, but they’re gonna want a lot more than 10 too. Personally, I like getting RP up into the 30s as early as possible. There’s a lot of tech that’s valuable. Engines, mining, T2 ship hulls, T2 ship yard, colonization, terraforming, etc.

Sure, labs are expensive, but they are also the key to growth. Since they have diminishing returns getting the first 25-35 RPs is really important, but they become less critical after that. As for specific tech, a lot depends on your system(s), neighbors, and play style. Ignoring deep mining could be costly if you don’t have good starting deposits. Ignoring weapons and advanced hulls means you could be a victim of other players and pirates. Ignoring colonization will limit growth. Ignoring engines slows expansion.

Yes, the top tier of pretty much every tree has little benefit early on (except engines and colonization). I would say that deep mining is a near the bottom of the list for essential tech, but it’s definitely on that list.

Perhaps the issue here is that “so many labs” is too vague. Maybe you mean over 100 labs, and in that case I agree. However, if you mean over 20 labs, then I disagree.


#13

I understand what you mean, I didn’t include weapons or ships as they are a massive amount of research points and i would have to get into explaining which ships/weapons to research so i simplified it down to every other tree but those 2.

About 2-3 RPs per planet is a good number of laboratories to have, the title is a bit clickbaity but one of the big things i have seen is players focusing so much on research they have tied up a lot of their free population.

Naturally you have to spend pop on base infrastructure like farms, power stations and entertainment centers, any pop not used up by these 3 is free pop, this free pop is then used on other buildings that create value for your empire.

The issue is that many people put far too much of their free pop into laboratories, instead of far more productive buildings like mines and shipyards.

Another point i tried to make is that my 50 research is enough if you make smart decisions, the criticism of my choice not to go for deep mining is fair, i made the decision based on several posts i have seen about them not working and other factors i have explained. I’m not going to research it until it is working properly and has a better return on investment.

The key advice to take away was to consider what was going to get you the best return on investment. Unlocking everything is not a realistic goal.


#23

Mate unless what your talking about is somehow related to the number of laboratories or what tech you should research i think you might have gone slightly off topic here.

If you have something to say about science ot tech post about it.


#24

Tech is king… It speeds up everything you do… So good luck with your Sub Light Space Canoes when you run into an aggressive player who has weapons 2-3 tiers above you, with the hardened armor and improved shields… Take your 8-10 hours to research the improved weapons, and the 5-6 hours to research the new ship platform to mount them on. By the time you have reached parity, they will own 1/2 your planets. I have just reached 110 Labs and will be sitting there quite happily researching the sh!te out of everything. (11hours for deep mining… yes thanks.}


#25

I can reverse it and say the exact same thing to you, but I don’t think you have understood the point. Tech isn’t as important as it seems, you don’t need to unlock everything, and by focusing too much on tech you can hurt the long term growth of your empire.

You might be able to have the best researched fleets but unless you can build them in sufficient number you will be overrun. How many shipyards do you have? how many fleets can you raise? Do you even have enough Fasu and fuel to make a fleet and send it to where it needs to go, these factors are very important and been overlooked by most people.

What are you going to do when he invades you with 80 ships that might not be as advance but vastly outnumber you?


#26

My 20 superior ships will wipe the floor with them… My heavy armor, superior shields and power plants mean each of my ships is equal to 3-4 of theirs. My Superior command levels means I can out maneuver him with numbers of fleets. My Improved power production and EC’s mean I can fit more mines on the planet for the same population. My superior cargo containers and engines mean I can move more cargo faster for the same number of ships… And the fact that I have T2 cloaking and mine technology means I can keep them at bay while keeping an eye on them. Nowhere is it the inferior position to be… Tech is King.


#27

I think some may be misunderstanding Lord Emperor. I had a negative knee jerk reaction to what he initially wrote, but he raises some good points. My experience with 4X type games is that timing is critical… doing the right thing… at the right time!

  1. Lord Emperor is correct in that there are a lot of techs that are pretty well useless… early on. This has been discussed in other threads and in Cheatle’s guide. Some I’ll NEVER research and others I’ll only research after my planets have reached their maximum population limit and I need to squeeze every ounce I can out of the planet.
  2. There are ofc some techs that are highly useful… early on. I believe what Lord Emperor is saying is that if you focus only on these useful techs that you don’t need that many research labs… at this time. That you can get more “bang for your buck” investing elsewhere… again, at this time.
  3. Lord Emperor is not saying that tech is useless as some are arguing. It’s more that it’s important to build a solid base FIRST, and then you can research much faster later if you need to.
  4. I play another game, Astro Empires, and people who tech too much, too early, there are referred to as “tech whores”. They kill their long term account development by investing too much in tech too early and are farmed off the game soon enough. I believe that this is the sort of thing that Lord Emperor is referring to.

All that to say that I understand and appreciate what he’s getting at.
And that admission is coming from someone with 178 research points! :stuck_out_tongue:
Note though, that I am only rank 3 whereas Lord Emperor is rank 1…


#28

True in this game. I don’t think the Zulu’s in space option would be viable we just cant get the amounts of ships (no not even you Furry guys) to overwhelm anything my a massively smaller but more advanced foe.

I recommend everyone try a hand or two of Cosmic Encounter to teach how wildly different advantages can mesh and recombine to actually achieve victory :slight_smile:


#29

I’d love cosmic encounter more if my usual crew of players wasn’t so infatuated with their rule “Whatever it takes–don’t risk Michael winning again!” Haha

For the OP though, I’m hoping that by beta we have diminishing returns on research (as multiple labs will tend to overlap discoveries) and such deep, sprawling tech that we’re all forced to spend as long as a year discoverig its depths through a fog. We’d be forced to skip techs that aren’t part of our specialization.


#30

You got it, you understood what i meant. I’m working on another post now to explain the very important concept of free pop and what upgrades are worth it.

One thing i have noticed is that synthis players tend to focus on tech more than other races, why have you focused so much on tech?


#31

Well, my line of thinking on Syntis development is this:

  1. With fixed Tax Rate and lower population growth, Syntis desperately need more colonies quickly, because of the population growth boom each one gives.
  2. So the tech to allow you to build more colonies is very important.
  3. Also, because there is a tech tree to improve Syntis tolerance to a wider temperature range range, this is very important to help you get more colonies quickly.
  4. And to expand quickly, ship speed is important. I’m new here of course but at this stage of the game I think that free warp 2/3 engines are highly overrated. They will be needed later, but Warp 7 has been very important to me up until now.
  5. Rather than going for deep mines, I’ve been scouring empty systems, so freighter tech has also been very important to me. Fast freighters to expand quickly and beat others to getting those easy to get stock piles. Below is my current total minerals count, in thousands… i.e. what I have stockpiled on planets at this moment.
    image
    As you said, I don’t really need deep mines yet. :stuck_out_tongue:
  6. And to manage all of those freighter and colony fleets, I needed fleet slots… so that was another important tech tree to me.
  7. I really wanted to get developed first before starting in on warship and weapon tech, but Pirates and one aggressive neighbour early on forced me to do so. Hence, why I was high on combat rank earlier. It’s only now becoming a higher priority again.
  8. Because I’ve been like locusts gathering resources, mining has been less important, which means that I’ve had the population to throw into research centers. However, I have also bitten the bullet on the 3000 limbault and ziryl costs per shot to upgrade a large number of them. Upgrading research centers doubles their research points, so its one the few worthwhile upgrades early on… as long as you can afford the ziryl. But because I’ve focused on warp 7 engines and gathered a lot of ziryl, I could.

So most of my research as been geared to date towards developing my infrastructure and population. It’s only now starting to turn towards combat ships.

Being Syntis may be different than others, but that’s what I’ve done.
Does that answer your question somewhat?

Oh yeah, and while not essential, transporters have just made game management SO much easier for systems with multiple colonies!!! Has freed up fleet slots and saved me much time and effort ferrying minerals in system.