Orbital defense stacking

So I understand if you have 3 Level two orbital defense guns you only get the 50% invasion (does not increase for number) but I thought you did stack damage to orbiting ships (3x150) for 450 every 3 min strike.

I am only observing 150. Did this change??

Also I thought all the 20 fleets in orbit would get hit. Is it only just 3?

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Each orbital defense hits a different fleet in orbit (if available) and each shoots at 3 minute intervals. It is the fairest way to do it for both the attacker and defender.

ODS stack when attacking ships. Do not stack when defending against invasion.

One ODS only target one fleet and their targeting mechanism is terrible. Instead of focus firing they spread their damage to give maximum benefit to attackers. Basically they are shit and you need to stack 50+ to have any degree of offline defense. Also they dont allow you to build T3 ODS to give the attacker even more advantage.

Late game people will come with 50+ tanks, flood your orbit with 1 ship fleets which will absorb most of the ODS damage, and bomb the shit out of you when you are offline. Worst aspect of the game.

  • An orbital gun damages every ship in the targeted fleet.
  • A single gun can only target a single fleet.
  • Multiple guns can target the same fleet. (If there are less fleets in orbit than there are guns on the planet)
  • If there are more fleets in orbit than there are guns on the planet then the extra fleets will not be damaged at all. (unless other targeted fleets are destroyed or leave the orbit)

Off-topic

Uhm… ODS mechanics are pretty terrible tho. Wouldn’t you agree? They feel like a quickly thrown together placeholder until the proper planetary defense feature is introduced. Same goes for the “single dice roll decides the outcome of a planetary invasion”.

Would you enjoy fleet battles if they were created in a similar way?

Fleet A has 234,000 Power and Fleet B has 278,500 Power. => * Dice roll * => Fleet A won the battle.

My guess is: not at all.

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The cheif problem here is that they were never intended to be the sole defense for an offline player. That’s what fleets in orbit are for. ODS were intended to shift the area to the defender’s advantage and prevent an attacker from simply camping his planet. This is a 4X (or intended to be) game and many of us play this game to exterminate. While I am not a particularly aggressive player, I play this game for that purpose. IF an ODS is buffed to focus fire whithout a comperable nerf, it will effectively remove an X from the game.

So lets get down to what this is really about. You dont want to be able to loose planets. I’m not sure there would be a point to playing the game if that came to be. If we really wanted to extend the time it took to take a planet, there is a very simple and rational concept that we would have to switch to, which is reduce the dmg from the ODS to 1 per hour and then extend the time it takes to glass a planet to 1 week (as well as invasions?). The whole reason it takes as little time as it does to do it is because of the time constraints placed on it by the ODS. The primary reason we glass planets is because the ODS is so strong, its impossible to invade a planet ready for such an assault.

Would you prefer
side A: 500k troop power
side B: 499,999 troop power
Side A wins 100% of the time?
I assume not as well, so the question is what do we do? Much like the corruption mechanic we have all gotten used to, not even the devs like it, but a superior alternative isn’t obviously apparent. Many alternatives have been proposed but none recieved a lot of attention.

@Tirane as you can see, there is quite the disagreement on the topic meaning the situation is likely to change to some degree. What that will look like though… :man_shrugging: I think we can all agree though that the ODS should fire before combat, not after.

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMN! #roasted

The chief problem here is that the ODS mechanics are not in line with space battle mechanics. Look at Imperium Galactica or Masters of Orion as an example. There space stations and orbital guns participate in the actual space battle. Defense structures can be shot at and destroyed. And you cannot invade or damage a planet unless you defeated its defense.

In those games your main defense is also your fleets but planetary defense is created using a much better system. I don’t see any reason why Outscape could not have a similar system and why should we accept the current mechanics without any protest. :pensive:

However, it is advertised as a Grand Strategy game. So, it should involve more diplomacy, planning and strategy; and less “quick action” extermination. But, I am obviously not an expert :woman_shrugging:

TL:DR: everything is wrong about invasion and bombing because of ODS mechaniocs, got it!

False :disappointed:

I do not mind loosing planets in a fair fight that require strategy and planning. what I mind is loosing planets because of meta-gaming and exploiting poorly designed features. Now you know what this is really about, from my point.

May I try and guess your point? Let attackers have it easier, or something along those lines?

Can we agree on that the current ODS mechanics should be replaced with a much better system?

Maybe a turn based system?

Where battles (dice rolls) occur at regular times and both attacker and defender is able to reinforce until one side is destroyed. That would mean invasions could last much longer than 9 hours, because the two sides would only lose some and not all of their troops at the dice roll.

This would be a step up from current mechanics.

How about the idea of introducing upkeep for everything (structures, ships, modules, troops) and corruption would raise an empire total upkeep by x%?

Happiness would be less effected by corruption and it would become mostly a planet balancing thing.

Yeah, I don’t think devs are very excited about overhauling a major part of their game.

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ODS is a terrible mechanic but you don’t have to replace the whole thing, just balance it. For example, barracks are balanced, for invasions, because as a defender you get a bonus against an invader and you have a 10 hour window to react and bring reinforcements. So you only need maybe 20 barracks to adequately defend from an offline invasion.

ODS is not balanced because end game you can easily get together 20 full dread bomber fleets plus a whole bunch of tank fleets and that cannot be effectively defended, during the max 1 hour it takes to bomb it when you are offline, even if you have 60 ODS. Once I had 57 ODS and 10 dread fleets in orbit. I go to sleep and wake up with my planet gone. Same planet I successfully defender earlier when online and was able to release my docked fleets at the right moment. Small but powerful space dock feature

Some people claim 100 ODS is what is needed for offline defense. I never had that many but it is not balanced that you would need that many which would take 1 million+ of your population just to have offline defense, half of that would be reasonable.

So simple short term solution: Allows us to upgrade to tier 3 ODS which effectively doubles the damage of ODS and would not require you to build more than 50 to have a good offline defense.

Long term solution: Redo the system to make it like invasion with hours long window. One way to do this is to introduce a planetary shield building which blocks damage both ways (ODS cant shoot out of it) and is online for around 10 hours of bombing.

My preferred solution: Change planetary bombing so that it only softens the target for invasion and have invasion and raiding the only two ways to damage/take over a planet.

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Many other videogames have friendly fire and swords too… Lets assume that those wont be added and talk a little more specific. I assume you dont mean that the ODS would be turned into a space station in which a simple battle comparable to the fleets battles we have now would ensue as a planet could be rendered defenseless in record time. So you want a battle between the planet bombardment ships and the planetary defenses themselves? I struggle to see a mechanic that would similarly be fair to both the attacker and defender. A player stacks 50 ODS on his planet and it takes 25-ish fleets to kill it? sort of the same mechanic we have now except that bombardment fleets have to shoot the ODS and destroy them before anything else? still all slaves to the time limit crunch and that time limit is even shorter pending the details. do you have another idea? please explain in a little more detail than vague concepts.

no one said anyone should accept anything but this sarcasm is hardly conducive to an honest good conversation that leads to solid results. No concept is birthed perfect, only through the fires of good honest critiques do we get near perfect results.

As am I. I have given numerous ways to end that, but never recieved any positive responses. I can link a few of them if you’d like. I can give you 100 different ways to arrive at your desired result, and as I did with Rae’s reverse superiority concept, help give it voice and definition even when I am against it, but I cannot do that without some concept of where you want to go, and I will not do that if I dont see a solution to your given problems.

I mean I am not exactly happy with it but no. Also the sarcasm thing again… It doesnt really help much.

Not even close. The most fun I ever had in any video game was a competiton between me and my friends in a game called Stronghold. The competition was to see who could build a castle and defend it from the others for the least resources. I won in both the assaults and defenses. There are no rock paper scissors nor silly 20% bonus dmg vs unit mechanics. Its 100% strategy and most of it automated. No need to micro, but there plenty to macro. As I stated above, I am not particularly aggressive, I just want a game that is 100%, no silly your conquored but I can’t finish you, or a game where I need to get the scissor to cut the paper every time.

I mean yes, I proposed that system and no one seemed to be in favour of it.

As I see it, it would shift from ECs to more city centers without much change but I guess it depends on the details and formulas. ATM, without more details, I do not see much changing and I dont see any improvement without heavy formulas.

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Planets are already defenseless against a large enough bombing force. The worst of it all, the attacker can bomb a defended planet without loosing a single ship.

You could not simply park 50 fleets around a planet without loosing a few of them if defenses had to be defeated in a space battle like setting.

If you had to fight a fleet reinforced with planetary defenses, then the attacker will suffer heavy losses against a strongly fortified target.

I think, this is how planetary defense should be done.

You can?

My desired result is a system that does not provide insane advantage for an online attacker against an offline defender. And cannot be exploited in a way where an attacker can obliterate an entire planet in a tiny fraction of time that required to develop that planet without loosing even a single ship.

I don’t think ODS can do that in its current form. Because, ODS exist in a different dimension, unaffected by ship weapons, completely bypassing the regular space battle format.

Yeah, the story of most (all?) of my ideas.

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And that one sentence is why ODS is not balanced and is not properly doing its job. Just by making the ODS focus fire would change that though.

I mean I love your idea as I do most of your ideas but they seem complex and dev. resource heavy, which is why I doubt they will be implemented anytime soon. But ODS can still do a better job just by simple changes. Allow us to upgrade to T3 ODS and have them focus fire. Done. ODS just became a ton better and made successfully bombing a planet hard. Which is what it should be.

play some more on the new server, maybe then you will notice the changes…

For all of the following ideas, this is constant. ODS would fire before one ship would engage another in combat. Ships would automatically launch from fleet storage based on a number of factors but be banned from any instant launches. The details are unnecessary ATM. And of course all rules as well as strategies need to be explained to the nubs. This is important regardless of any changes.

  1. Mostly the same to what we have now except that there should be defensive structures that would be sacrificed to protect the population as well as tech that would hamper the killing of the population. To make it fair to the attacker, he needs to have armor that would reduce damage (and it would stack imo) from the ODS but not give much in the way of HP.

  2. One of the very first alterations I gave for the ODS was to have it setup as a battery of sorts. It has a charge of 100 (the original concept was actually player dependant which I will leave out for the moment) and would expend 1 for a specific amount of damage. Say 100 damage to a fleet. Naturally the attacking player would cheese the ODS by sending in 1 ship at a time and that would indeed drain the ODS’s charge but the ODS would slowly recharge but there was no CD between shots. This concept has a very high initial DMG but after that is soaked up, the damage comes at a trickle relying on the player to stop the siege. To be fair to the defender, the ODS would not shoot vs targets that had 1 ship in it that did not attack a defenseless fleet. IE if an attacker hit a combat fleet or used a fleet with 1 ship, it would not expend any energy.

  3. Because where are our space bases?!?! Obviously expensive but would be a massive structure floating in the solar that would do damage to any fleet inside the solar. Players would have to assault it first (or suffer the strong chance of taking too much damage for the situation to be worth it maybe 500 dmg to a single fleet every 3 minutes?) by placing a fleet in orbit of the base (being in orbit of a planet does not protect you). Fleets in the base’s orbit do not take this damage. Instead a battle between them begins, sort of. Fleets do not engage the space base like we do now. Each fleet in orbit and the planet take damage based on the other’s weapons. Ships with bombardment weapons do more damage while ships without still do some. Auto engagements still function as if it was inside a planet’s orbit and the damage and the munitions expended by the ships (when not engaged in fleet to fleet combat) is reduced. The space station requires resources to repair and cannot repair while in combat. The space station should be what amounts to a resource sink. Upgardes are infinite and exponentional. Seiging one should take days and the fleets in the assault would not be up for another fight when all was said and done.

  4. My post on revamping invasions touches on it, but the TL/DR is that plannets can’t really get glassed without having to spend a long time to do it but planets can be either invaded and conquored or exterminated. Whats not in there but can be found in other places is that exterminating a population has a negative reputation that the NPCs of our universe dont like.

  5. Moons are areas that can easily be inhabited by the military. 2 to 5 times more expensive than normal structures, worked 100% by your military. Military strucutres only (with the exception of the power stations). Military bases work like farms and all other planetary rules apply. Moon base automatically deploys to planet when labor shortage or being invaded (via a structure?). Planet cannot automatically deploy to moon.

I mean I only had an issue with your automated solar defense until you clarified that the defensive fleets didn’t have to intercept anything to begin the engagement. I still think its a little odd, but I accepted it.

At the beginning middle and end of the day, any mechanic can be overcome by sheer numbers. The question is what do you want to have to do to overcome it? Responding with the simple loss of fleets would make me ask if a sacrifice to the IDA gods would be enough. The above satisfies you in vauge terms but the devil is always in the details. It is quite possible that the simple automated launching of fleets from storage may accomplish your desires. An attacker would never know when that fleet would pop out and start making short work of his bombers, requiring him to bring full combat fleets instead of just trying to cheese the system. After that, its just a matter of teaching the nubs and the finer details.

If all you really want is for them to just take looses then sure let them focus fire and you’ll still be killing them 1 ship fleet at a time. Make them focus fire specific targets, then the bombardment fleets would also need a strong buff (even if that buff came in the form of a planet having a cap on the number of ODS they can have like 10 for example) or we wouldnt be able to exterminate another player. Bombardment fleets are too fragile and make too much of an easy target as they are.

Heres what I think -

Ods should be a sort of ship, though cannot leave the orbit of the planet. You can have ships escort the ods to protect them. Ods would come in 3 tiers like now, tier one would have a flagship level of 18, level 2 would have a flagship level of 22, level 3 would have a flagship level of 26. All ods will need to be taken out in order to bomb or invade the planet. The ods will have lots of health, perhaps 25k or more. The ods will have a central cannon and a number of medium missiles and cannons. The central cannon will target fleets before engaging in combat.

The central cannon will be a railgun. Depending on how much power you can supply to it, the ods will recharge faster. Every 50 mw extra power on the planet will reduce the recharge time by 1%. So if a ods has a recharge of 3 minutes, you have 1000 mw of extra power, you will recharge your ods in 2 minutes and 42 seconds. Multiple ods will stack the required power to recharge faster, so 2 ods would be 100mw for 1% less recharge. You might think thats kind of bad, but listen. If I upgraded all the power stations on my homeworld to level 3, I would have over 15 gw (15900mw) of extra power. I would recharge 4 ods in 37 seconds, 750 damage every 37 seconds.

Now that sounds op, but remember you can destroy them in fleet battles. Doing this, it would encourage the use of carriers. You could send a group of carriers to wreck the ods, kind of like how you see happen in the battle for earth in Halo 2 and 3.

Thoughts?