Orbit defense change


#1

I just finished researching T2 orbit defense, and I was disappointed to find that I’d wasted my time. They need 50kMWt power, and cost 25k credits, and 50k beron. And for all of that I get effectively nothing. The damage increases from 1k to 5k, but since anyone actually intent on taking a planet would send a bait ship before the real fleet it really makes no difference.

So, I have an idea to improve the overall value of orbit defense. Instead of having the orbit defense be a single shot at full damage make it multiple shots at 100 damage per hit. This means that for a T1 orbit defense you’d need to send in either 10 bait ships, or something that can soak up 1000 damage. The T2 increases to 5000 damage, so you’d need to absorb 5000 damage. That means that invading a planet defended with a T2 orbit defense would actually be a costly move.


Border sensor/alarm system
#2

Yes. Orbit defence is too exploitable, and even when invading you dont need to keep the fleet in orbit. So orbit defence is useless at the moment.

Maybe make t1 deal 100 damage every second a fleet is in orbit, and once it hits 1k it goes to cooldown. For t2 it would be 500 damage every second a fleet is in orbit. And t3 1k. And fix the thing where you dont need to keep your fleet in orbit to invade a planet. Even with the 75% anti invasion rate its still pretty easy to take a home world. You just calculate how many troops you need. Im not sure how the research for stronger troop defence is, but maybe make those easier to get and it wont be such a problem.

Overall i agree, something needs to be done.


#3

The other major factor is they reduce invasion time to about half an hour.


#4

Killing 50% of all troops invading you regardless of recharge status isn’t good enough for you? OK I’m listening? How should it be improved?


#5

Yes. Because you simply bring more troops.


#6

Because 50% of troops killed is what one T1 orbit defense does. What benefit is there to having a T2, or having more than one? Increased damage is essentially worthless because of bait ships.

I would like orbit defense to actually be a real deterrent. Not overpowered to the point that invasion becomes pointless. They should be powerful enough to make me actually think about attacking a planet.

With my proposed change there’s nothing that prevents someone from loading up a few ships with armor and sending them in. The same same strategy still works. It just makes it more expensive to attack a defended planet.

If I put a few T2 orbit defense systems on a planet then an attacker would need to soak up 15k fleet damage and then get through my orbiting fleets.

I’d also like so see additional orbit defense systems increase the anti-invasion rate, but I think the current baiting exploit is more important.


#7

True enough but from what I see here in A3 this will be a touch trickier to achieve with troop carry limits on Frigate type ships


#8

Hmm I thought T1 were 25%. But I see your point.

Though I have used it myself the Bait ship is a problem. So you are suggesting that instead maybe they could fire off 100 Hp missiles sequentially until their rack was empty or the target(s) were toast?

That way eventually they would have a down time but it would be more spread out and make even an alert attacker absorb more net damage? Hmm OK I see .

Now problem I see is the Devs appear to want to allow some kind of PvP with resource raids. an orbital defence like this effectively wipes that out rendering the whole mechanic useless (its nearly useless now for other reasons)

Maybe if the Orbital launched on troops based on the amount of ships delivering them. 15% base chance for one ship +10% chance per additional ship so invasions get properly retarded but raids with stealth still remain possible??


#9

Yes, the idea here would be that the system fires a limited number of shots, and when reached it has to recharge/reload/cooldown.

Orbit defense should still work against fleets coming in for a resource raid. They should fire any any ship that enters orbit (the ability to pass through orbit without getting shot in another concern, but I’ll leave that alone).

My main goal is to eliminate the use of a bait ship to get the orbit defense to fire, and then the planet is undefended for 20 minutes.

Currently it’s a viable tactic, and I’ll admit to using it to my advantage. Having taken over homeworlds I know how easy it is. Sure, I lose some troops, but when taking a planet with 400k population losing an invasion force of 200k and a bait ship is not a bad deal by any stretch. If I also ended up having to take 10k of armor damage it would at least make it a more costly choice. I’d lose 3 T2 destoyers (loaded with armor) by taking a homeworld. The loss of those ships, plus the troop loss still makes a homeworld worth taking, but it at least gives the defense a better footing than we have now.


#10

Unless it’s a missile of some sort, I have great trouble imagining a grounded structure that can fire once only between cooldowns but can strike a ship regardless of which angle the ship approaches orbit.

If we indeed imagine colonies to sprawl across their planet’s entirety, and thus the orbital defense boasting line of sight to all orbiting ships, we must concede there’s more than one weapon included in the orbital defense. If there’s more than one or likely many, why is it not producing damage per second instead of one big blast?


#11

Orbital Defense systems aren’t meant to be super amazing.

They are meant to inflict massive damage to your troops. The other thing they do is stop ships from bombing, storm bombing, and stealing from your planet.

They might get fooled by scouts, however they will fire multiple times during an attack to steal, they will do the same when bombing a planet or storming a planet.


#12

The other issue is that if you change the damage to small shots, you run the risk of making it a ZERO cost to attack, because I could come in with those same armored ships, but this time its just “pew pew pewing” me, instead of doing all its damage at once.

The other thing is that Orbital defense weapons aren’t meant to be used alone, they are meant to be used in conjunction with other ships for defense. You can’t actually invade/bomb/storm/steal from a planet that has attack fleets in its Gravity well.

By changing the wall of this works, you will take one loop hole, and potentially make the weapons too nerfed to actually work against concentrated fleets.


#13

I think that orbital defences were fine as a simple placeholder mechanic for early alpha. Planetary invasion needs a full rework now though to make the whole thing a much more interactive and rewarding experience.

Orbital defences should be more granular, with anti-ship missiles (as now), along with air superiority fighters, anti-ship fighters etc. Internally this can be modelled as the planet being a group of large super-carriers (one per OD structure.

This then allows for target priority settings for anti-ship, anti-dropship etc. Invasion option would need to be likewise expanded for counters against defences.

Basically turn an invasion into an extended tactical battle, rather than ‘Bait defence, bring x troops to outnumber defenders’.


#14

I’m not a fan of the DoT approach for the reason Cheatle gave. If it does 100dps then if I am fast a big tank can soak damage.

I just want an orbit defense that’s not spent after it sees a scout. As a defender, that only makes sense. As an attacker, neutralizing a T3 orbit defense with a scout makes invasions way too easy.

Having multiple shots that fire instantly (like current defense) means that there’s not an issue with speed runs. It also means that the defense isn’t defeated by a scout. It makes attacks more costly to the attacker, but not so much so that they aren’t worth doing. It makes invasions more a war of attrition than they are now, and that’s how they should be.

I’m not suggesting that this should be the end-game mechanic, but a stepping stone. If we can get a change like this in, and then play test it a bit then we might be able to improve it further.


#15

There’s another thread that ended up going down a similar path, and one of the things that came up was the idea that something like planet-based fighters should be a thing. Since planet based fighters could potentially act in the same way as I proposed the orbit defense would it might leave room to leave orbit defense as is.

With fighters (you could call them orbital weapon platforms, or other similar names, doesn’t need to be fighters) they would have a set DPS and health. Essentially, they would act like a fleet in orbit, without actually having a fleet in orbit. They would deal damage until defeated. Depending on the mechanism they could have a cooldown like the current orbital defense, or they could be completely destroyed like a fleet. The big thing is that they wouldn’t count against the fleet cap. They also wouldn’t require a shipyard.

This would allow the orbit defense to maintain the one-shot mechanism, while also avoiding the single unarmed scout exploit. Or both could be implemented and I’d be extra happy :slight_smile:

From a development standpoint I’m not sure if adding a new structure is easier, or if changing the firing of the orbit defense would be an easier approach. Either way, as I’ve said, my end goal here would just be improved planet defense, ideally without wasting fleet slots to do it.