No Brakes on the Orbital Bombardment Train

Now that I understand orbital bombardment better, I thought it might be worth raising this issue in its own thread: similar to the minefield problem, “there are no brakes on the orbital bombardment train”. It scales infinitely upward with no practical limits.

Picture, if you will…
I have an alliance of 10 members.
Each member has just 10 bombardment ships.
We sail into your system at 4am with a collective 100 bombardment ships.
Your entire system is wiped out by the time you log in.

Seems pretty feasible to me. 10 ships…4 weapons each… about 5k pop killed per weapon… about 20,000 population wiped per ship per bombard… 200,000 per player with his 10 ships… 2,000,000 per hour for our entire bombard armada…

Off the cuff numbers there but for sure I don’t see any problem wiping out a 5 million population system while you’re offline. Even if you had your own 10 man alliance, this is going to happen so fast that they might not have a chance to respond.

We need to consider ways to balance bombardment in a way that puts a firm upper limit on how fast it can happen.

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That was the plan on your systems for friday night who let the cat out of the bag?
but yes you are right, ODS does max 150 damage per 3 mins…Tier 5 Bombing tech fires in 30 mins so you get 10 hits in a max of 1500 damage to my cruiser. You have 10 tier 2 ODS you say, well sadly my PR cruisers only have 2 large guns, so will do about 9k dead per ship (18k if i was Toaster), so my 100 ships should do about 900k dead. ill put them in fleets of 10 and put 10 fleets in your orbit. i will end up with a lot of repairs but our latest intel says that if we kill 900k of your population your ODS will go off line. No ODS means any of your planets that require a second shot, i am all good as ships are damaged but your ODS wont be firing any more. And pop goes your planet … Just think you get to start again as a new race if you want…Dam i wasnt supposed to tell you the plan

Quick fix for this is quite easy, only allow orbital bombing to kill a max total of 25% of your population…25% of planet max, well that could mean on a low developed planet it might not even touch the population. Assuming pop max is 1million and you have 749k total pop…or could be 25% of max pop the planet would support, so if you have farms for 500k pop it would kill pop down to max of say 375k…Personally i favour an addition to the tech tree, Air raid shelter. T1 means 250k can hide, T2 means 500k and T3 means 750k can hide, of course if its a small planet that would only support 250k pop then a T1 is good enough. Alternative is 25% of pop Max, 50%, 75% of pop max are hidden…you think they can impliment this before Friday Slamz as could be a saviour for you?

dont we already have a thread talking about ods and bombardments? Multiple threads dont help, as we just need to copy/paste everything from one over to the other

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This subject has invaded most of the currently active threads.

The issue as I read it is massed cooperative bombardment wiping out a gigantic system while a defender is not logged on. It is a different matter to ODS mechanics.

A separate thread is appropriate.

(edit - Slamz wrote some stuff, “massed cooperative bombardment” was my misread, as other allies can do cooperative defense. Still a matter of wiping out a big planet that’s a big time investment while defender isn’t logged on.)

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The other thread title is ods cheese, which directly references how ods dont do anything to stop bombardment

but fine, ill just copy/paste

it is all related as is why the toaster cruiser has 4 guns making it twice as effective so all related and all need to be addressed

Actually Slamz, if you were facing that big a force disparity, you’re screwed even if you were online. What kind of force concentration are you thinking of that can hold off 10 to 1 odds? Even if you were online, all the alliance would do is bring in 10 battle fleets to clean out your orbit then get to bombing. The only difference is if your ships go down fighting like if you were offline or if they run to fight another day. That planet is lost either way. Even if they took 24 hours to kill it, do you have the forces to force them to withdraw? If you don’t, then all you can do is watch while the countdown timer hits 0 and the world is toast.

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10 allies of my own.

That’s my real point here. It can be arranged to happen so fast that there would be no time to respond, even if you had the allies and ships to respond with. In fact, if I really wanted to be a bastard, I would do something like…

Everyone runs their bombard ships over to a staging area, grouped inside of cloaked fleets.
On the night in question, we group them inside of sweeper fleets.
We run into your system and start bombardment while you’re offline.

You might have the ships to stop us.
You might have your own 40-member alliance that could crush us.
But tonight we’re going to vaporize your entire 5M population system before you log on.

Even better, we might actually have time to do more than one system because this can happen very fast.

I actually think the end-game method of killing end-game planets should be “slow death by blockade”.

Killing an entire end-game system should probably take no less than a week, regardless of how many ships and people you have, but it can potentially be done in an hour.

Yeah we were kinda getting off-topic there, though. I really wanted that thread to talk about defensive bonuses to defending fleets whereas this thread is more about lack of limits on bombardment mechanics can lead to overnight destruction in the end-game.

Speed isnt quite as relevant as you think, if they can arrange it fast you can arrange defence fast. if it happends slow then defence responce will be slow. regardless of how fast or slow it happends the attacker is far more likely to be able to do what ever they want quicker than a defender can respond. so it wouldnt matter if they reduced speed by a factor of 10, you cant respond as quick as the attacker. The only difference with it happening slower is that it gives you longer to reflect on the mistakes you made and how to avoid them, that is unless defending fleets get faster warp drive, so you friends can get there quicker. Or you do a major redesign of the game and the stars are clustered and you join an alliance before starting the game so you can all defend your cluster. But for now you have to live with it, better the end perhaps comes faster than slowly

I have issue with someone deleting a planet with months of infrastructure build while your asleep. Its not like you can reconquer as if it was a troop invasion (granted if they abandon the planet after invasion, its kinda the same end result). You would need to spend 3 months rebuilding it

Time to respond is needed

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but this is the reason i would always argue for planets that you can occupy lord it over for a week or two and then have to “give” it back, as no way can it be deleted, and of course you never actually destroy anyone just mess their game up for a week or so

It’s an online vs offline problem.

Same reason invasions tend to take 9-24 hours now. They used to be much faster but in order to give offline players more of a chance to respond to the invasion, the minimum invasion time is 9 hours.

Bombardment will need something similar.

Offline players need to have a realistic chance to respond, and nothing – no amount of stacked up players and bombardment ships – should be able to wipe a system overnight. Thus “no brakes on the bombardment train”.

It needs brakes.

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So bombardments need 9hrs, so thats about 540 minutes or 180 ODS attacks so that possibly 18k or more damage. That just stop orbital bombing in its tracks, several less techs that require researching. shortens the tech tree down to about 30 days

And meanwhile, few days ago, on Invasion thread you said…

Few days ago assaults were bad, bombing was great.

Few days ago mass mining was a problem, couse it was slowing down the game…
What we got today?

Good that you can keep your ideas consistant! :smile:

I’m following those threads here and on steam forums and I have to tell one thing…
Everything is bugged, bad designed or exploited when you are on losig end. And meanwhile, in real world (or, real game :smiley: ) the only main issue is your behaviour, that placed you where you are today. Surrounded, with pants down, in a spotlight.

Yes, game has its flaws (ofc, its beta still). But same time, it has the same flaws to everyone of us. Some of us are just smart enough to not play MMO single player, or not to attack everyone around same time - and expect to win.

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So thats what he gets up to when he is away from the computer lol

But yes it as always proves a point that you need allies and bashing your neighbours is perhaps not a great idea at the start, as its going to come back to haunt you

You are conflating two separate issues:

In a tough fight with an equal opponent, bombing is prohibitively expensive. I have to beat your fleets while additionally affording a separate bombing fleet which necessarily is not going to be great in combat. Basically player 1 cannot bomb player 2 unless player 1 can overpower player 2 by enough to beat him head to head, warfleet to warfleet, while simultaneously having the funds to spend on an expensive bomb fleet.

And maybe that’s reasonable? But I think it will tend to lead the game into stalemates. Usually in a 4X game the fleet that overwhelms the enemy fleet is the same fleet that leads you to sacking their planet.

However, (second issue!) if player 1 does overpower player 2, and can bring in bombard fleets, then again the problem is “there are no brakes”. The more bombers you can bring, the faster you can accomplish the job. Veterans could wipe out newbies literally overnight. This is an issue unique to this type of real time game. Pacing it correctly is important.

My long suggested solution – slow-cooking blockades that wear a planet down over time – would solve both problems.

Now my war fleets can also damage your planet.
But slowly, giving you time to react if you can.

And some of us want to experience the real game and therefore have useful feedback to offer in the early testing phases.

Hiding behind a zerg force does nothing to teach you the game. And coming to the forums to defend broken mechanics purely because they help you more easily offline people is not the type of feedback the game needs, except to the extent we should listen closely to you and then do the exact opposite.

I have long encouraged everyone to do this. It’s the only way to gain a real understanding of game mechanics.Joining the biggest zerg you can find and only fighting when it’s easy doesn’t teach you anything. You can blow up pirates all day but if you’re not willing to challenge yourself then you’re never going to be good at the game or really have useful feedback on it.