Lv4 Shipyard cost WAY too much power


#21

I tell you I had the laughable home. I’m fine. I burned it and hauled myself toward new ventures.


#22

I’d like to see more consistent HW’s for everyone, so there isn’t such a disparity and they should be larger, whether they should initially be able to support a Lvl 4 Shipyard, I might disagree there. At least Lvl 3 for certain, which many can’t even support. If it might not support a Lvl 4, that would give incentive to search for that perfect Lvl 4 shipyard planet and give something to fight over.


#23

Probably have a template for multiple full system starts:

TEMPLATE ONE - BALANCED START

Home Planet - 15km (Humans/PR)/18km (Ripchee)/13km (Syntis) - 60% Density (2 resources 61% to 85% RNG) - Best Landmass and Temperature

Starting Resources: 1M Beron, 400k Farsu, 200k Limbalt, 100k Ziryl, 1M Olzine

RNG 4-6 Additional Planets (10km to 18km), resources in medium quantities, densities 20% to 75%

TEMPLATE TWO - FAST START

Home Planet - 12km (Humans/PR)/15km (Ripchee)/10km (Syntis) - 60% Density (4 resources 65% to 90% RNG) - Best Landmass and Temperature

Starting Resources: 800k Beron, 300k Farsu, 150k Limbalt, 75k Ziryl, 800k Olzine

RNG - 3-5 Additional Planets, (7km to 15km), resources in lower quantities, densities 25% to 85%

TEMPLATE THREE - HUGE PLANETS

Home Planets - 18km (Humans/Pr)/21km (Ripchee)/16km (Syntis) - 60% Density (1 resource 61% to 85%)

Starting Resources: 800k Beron, 300k Farsu, 150k Limbalt, 75k Ziryl, 800k Olzine

RNG - 3-5 Additional Planets, (13km to 21km), resources in lower quantities, densities 15% to 70%

TEMPLATE FOUR - RESOURCE RICH

Home Planets - Home Planet - 15km (Humans/PR)/18km (Ripchee)/13km (Syntis) - 60% Density (2 resources 61% to 85% RNG) - Best Landmass and Temperature

Starting Resources: 1M Beron, 400k Farsu, 200k Limbalt, 100k Ziryl, 1M Olzine

RNG - 3-5 Additional Planets, (10km to 15km), resources in higher quantities, densities 15% to 70%

TEMPLATE FIVE - DENSITY RICH

Home Planet - 12km (Humans/PR)/15km (Ripchee)/10km (Syntis) - 60% Density (4 resources 65% to 90% RNG) - Best Landmass and Temperature

Starting Resources: 800k Beron, 300k Farsu, 150k Limbalt, 75k Ziryl, 800k Olzine

RNG - 2-3 Additional Planets, (7km to 15km), resources in medium quantities, densities 30% to 90%

TEMPLATE SIX - GARGANTUAN PLANETS

Home Planets - 21km (Humans/Pr)/24km (Ripchee)/19km (Syntis) - 60% Density (1 resource 61% to 85%)

Starting Resources: 800k Beron, 300k Farsu, 150k Limbalt, 75k Ziryl, 800k Olzine

RNG - 1-3 Additional Planets, (16km to 24km), resources in medium quantities, densities 15% to 70%

Starting Systems will always have temperatures within 40 C of normal for your race, landmass will not be below 25% or higher than 60%.

Low quantities - Beron (300k to 500k), Farsu (75k to 200k), Limbalt (50k to 150k), Ziryl (25k to 50k), Olzine (500k to 1million)

Medium quantities - Beron (500k to 700k), Farsu (175k to 300k), Limbalt (150k to 250k), Ziryl (50k to 100k), Olzine (750k to 2 million)

High quantities - Beron (800k to 1.2million), Farsu (300k to 500k), Limbalt (275k to 400k), Ziryl (100k to 200k), Olzine (1.5million to 4million

In general, exploring means you can find better density, resources, land mass, or planet sizes else where. These templates don’t really push into the upper realms of the best of the best, or even perfect. You still might find a 70% landmass 30 C, 21km planet with a perfect 99% Farsu rating out there in space, but you won’t find anything nearly that good in your starting system, or to those extremes.

@SlayMoreDragons something like that?


#24

What is the need for T4? It’s only for dreadnaughts.

T4 ship yards are 11,250 science, add in the 2 tiers of spacecraft launching, researching the dreadnaught itself and that comes to a total of 60,000 science, even at the current top end with 200 research points per hour that’s 12 days and 12 hours of research time to even get to the stage of using it.

I’m doing my own calculations but with the enormous resource requirements it looks like they simply don’t pay off, you would probably be better off having 2 planets with T3 ship yards than one T4.

Also just looking at some of the calculation you need to take the 30% labour shortage into account as it effectively gives you a working population of 30% greater than your real pop and resource mining for such ship production planets won’t be happening on the same planet.


#25

I’m OK with specialized planets. In fact I’m doing it already, which means the following point is somewhat mute:

Imo any given planet should only be mining its densest resource as opposed to multiple resources with lower densities. You import the other resources the planet needs from others that can mine them more efficiently.


#26

We’re not in A2, where deep mining everything everywhere was the right course of action. Now we need to be more aware of efficiencies in what we do. Don’t put 10 mines on a 15% density resource. It’s a waste of what limited resources we have. (I know, there’s always exceptions to the rule). I have some planets pegged as lab planets because they are large, and there’s ample supplies of beron, limbalt, and ziryl. Shipyard are systems with a decent sized planet, a lot of farsu in system, and decent amounts of limbalt, ziryl, and olzine. I also have a petri dish system with four large planets and moderate resources. I just load the planets up and harvest for invasions or to stock other planets.

All in all, this makes planet/system selection more strategic. Now I do find it unfortunate that some people started with really poor home systems, but that’s more of a balancing issue than anything.


#27

I am thinking… in order to solve the home world/T4 ship yard dilemma, everyone start off with a large home world and dual pop for production, this way have the home world have an abundance of res and the dual pop with the second pop geared for production in order to promote and utilize the T4 ship yard, and then the rest of the planets can be luck of the draw to be able to support a T4 home world.


#28

Thinking about this more, I’d like ststions to be modelled as ships, but without engines so they are stationary.

Each tier would have additional small, medium and large, and extra large slots. Armour, shields and generators could all be fitted as usual. Weapon slots limits would be provided by weapon emplacement modules… Ship yards would become station modules unlocked via the tech tree.

As the station is not mobile it could act as flagship for non-mobile planetary defence fleets, station tier governing fleet size, potentially with ship dry-dock modules to increase defence fleet size.

This way you can choose between weapons, yards, dry-docks etc for your preferred balance. Fleet base, Fondor style ship yard, or full on death-star, the choice would be yours.


#29

Okay this thread got massively derailed. Let me clarify some points.

  1. I am absolutely fine with the idea of specialized worlds. This is in no way complaining about that.
  2. @mel My complaint about wanting the Lv 4 SY numbers nerfed is ONLY for the alpha 3 server. I want them reverted to current numbers again in the next server but only after an overhaul to the spawning algorithm gives everyone a HW capable of hosting a Lv4 SY (if they choose).
  3. You people act like you have dozens of 20k planets everywhere, NOT EVERYONE IS SO BLOODY LUCKY!! Keep in mind some of us have very, very VERY bad sectors. In all honesty I absolutely 100% should have restarted, cuz my area is the absolute worst in the bloody galaxy based on every convo I’ve had with anyone else.
  4. The numbers in the OP were strictly for Syntis HW’s. So for organics your mileage may vary. For example, Syntis LV3 Farms require 30MW each, not 10MW. So if you think my pop requirements look strange, keep that in mind. Also ECs aren’t part of the equation for me.

Now let me address a couple of things, ignoring the posts that completely went off topic.
@Lord_Emperor

No. NO. NOOOOOOOO! Dreadnaughts as Flagship are going to be very important, especially for Syntis and PR because our Battleships don’t have a large enough fleet circle since our ships are so freakin massive. For Mankind and Ripchee it may seem that way for some. That being said, we don’t need to mass produce them, we just need to be able to produce them in general.

I am a believer in redundancy, though, which is why I was extremely upset initially that I’d have to slap my T4 shipyard on the edge of my empire, where it’s difficult to protect cuz it’s surrounded by uninhabitable systems and nearest to an active player. I since realized one of my other worlds that is a mere 8h away at w3 is 16k size so I am going to utilize that instead. It’s still on the edge of my empire, but it’s on the border with a friend, so it will be safe. You absolutely want to have a T4 shipyard. 2 would be preferred, but you absolutely will want one.

@Belisarius & @Archo

As mentioned above, this is about Syntis and Homeworlds specifically. Homeworlds have 60%+ in all resources, so your calling my point moot is in itself moot. I haven’t put a single deep mine on any resource below 30% with one exception, and that’s only because that system has literally no other Limbalt available and it was too far away from the next closest source of Limbalt prior to getting Hyperspace engines. That will be rectified soon. And it was only 5 mines. It’s at the very top center of the screenshot at the end of the post. 3.5d from HW at w1

@rhavoc

I agree except for the dual-pop part.


So that everyone is aware, I’ve said it multiple times and I’m going to say it again, my sector of space might literally be the worst sector in the entire galaxy, and that’s why I’m so up in arms about this. If anyone is half as unlucky as I am and is not surrounded by allies (such as a new player), this could drive them away from the game entirely.

The only reason I am still even playing is because I’ve got friends nearby, or I would have reset after 7 days like many others. Puma was initially nearby me and she did restart because this sector is horrendous. Following is a heavily edited screenshot of my area:

Sector


#30

Secondary pop is more of a problem for syntis than a benefit, and having that on a homeworld is just scary. Unless there was a way for Syntis to purge the flesh it would be a troublesome idea.

Simply increasing starting pop and adding a couple pop growth buildings from the start should get to the same end with out the squishy issue.


#31

My suggestion of stations as ships was an idea to de-couple stations from the underlying planet, along with all the problems they bring.

I probably didn’t make that clear as it was a quick brain dump over lunch. It wouldn’t be a change for Alpha3 anyway.


#32

@Corraidhin I don’t think the shipyard as a planetary “building” is an issue, personally. I just have an issue concerning the population numbers strictly for alpha 3 because so so so many of us had a home world that isn’t capable of hosting it.


#33

I’m sorry I completely missed this part of your post. The labor shortage is indeed something I didn’t take into consideration when making my original post, but I was half asleep when doing so, please forgive me, lol

Taking labor shortage into account I might be fine on my HW. Maybe. It’ll be a gamble.


#34

Wow, after looking at the pic that is bad. I’ve scanned about 400 planets near me, and the average size is 13.8k Granted, most of the big ones are temps that are well outside of even max Syntis range, and they have next to nothing for resources. I’ve found 15 planets that can support pop of 750k, have 60% farsu, and are otherwise OK planets (though some are occupied or in crap systems.

So, I think it would be interesting to see what the average is across the board. If there are a bunch in a similar spot to you then lowering power seems like a decent idea until home system randomization is better balanced. If you do have the worst slice of the galaxy, and this really isn’t an issue for anyone else… Well, that sucks.


#35

I would kill for 13k average planet size, holy crap. Where you live bro, i’m comin for that juicy booty!! haha, jk. Seriously, though, I’ve already sent the image (with much less editing) to the devs so they can see an extreme case of their algorithm in work. Furthermore, I don’t think anyone who didn’t play previous versions would have been able to work this sector, it’s just that bad. It’s taken every bit of knowledge I accrued in Alpha 2 to make this work, all but resorting to exploits.

And just off to the left of that image is a massive void that’s about 70x70LY which has a total of like 5 uninhabitable systems, and not a drop of fuel.


#36

I’m not posting much because there is still a lot to know before judgement can be cast… so this is just a would be nice request @mel

I like the randomness of it all, you have to take the rough with the smooth… Homeworld should in my opinion should pose a dilemma. So it would be a smaller than average planet but high abundance of everything, potentially 80% for all… leading to a choice over dropping the planet and finding a larger world with high abundance of a resource you’re after… or sticking with your original world… currently its a easy choice… you drop anything under 15K and later drop everything under 20K… What could make the choice more difficult is a homeworld bonus… 50% resource extraction bonus… so deep mines would extract 0.8 x 36 * 1.5 making them more valuable…

Specialisation of planet in a few forms…

  1. Expensive buildings… expensive in terms of personnel and power… like the T4 Shipyard…

  2. Each planet can be setup with a single focus… So a building that is dedicated to the desired focus…

The focuses could be

Resource: gathering gain + 25% accumulation but lose 50% pop growth -10% shipyard build speed.
Research: + 50% research, -50% resource, -50% shipyard build, -20% credits
Family focus: +30% pop growth, -25% resource, +20% credits, -10% shipyard
Manufacturing: +25% shipyard, -25% resource, -25% pop growth
Economic: +100% credits, -50% shipyard, - 50% resources, +2 happiness.
No focus

building take 7 days to construct and 7 days upgrade to other focus building type.
research can introduce more focuses later and it gives the devs an avenue to introduce later game changes… like an Hyper efficiency focus… +25% across the board… -1 base happiness (because efficiency needs discipline)

Talking of avenues to add to the game later… the current corruption/planet size mechanic will not give the devs much room to work in later on… add new tiers of happiness building, power etc… but population in the perma game will be an issue… maybe for the live server add a super large worlds upto 50K but only allow the planets to have upto 30% resource concentration where the randomness decides it has a resource… We are all gonna fight over a 50K world for sure… maybe organics could take 50 x 50K worlds… with lower resources… but higher fleet levels… but syntis would be disadvantaged… so again we’re stuck… sigh,

so a T5 Shipyard would be pretty hard to do, as you might need 10K power… if everything follows as it has from T1 to T4…


#37

Love the idea of founding colonies with a charter (Focus) A choose your plan screen could pop up right after the colonisation mini movie maybe?

Add in a “Military” focus maybe such worlds are war camps and might have less a corruption add on (due to increased security) and be ideal for border worlds where making Mil bases and Orbital guns/shipyards would be extra handy

Very interesting concept!


#38

The only point I’d like to make here is that regardless of focus, you’ll probably want to have beron production up to build upgrades; maybe excempt beron from the resource focus, or add a development focus along the lines of +50% pop growth, -50% corruption effect, 25% beron, -50% resource (aside from beron) - 50% shipyard -50% research -50% credits


#39

I am Syntis as well btw. And homeworlds don’t have 60% on all resources; they have a minimum of 60%; they can have a higher % on some minerals. With regards to a minimum density for Deep Mines, I’m only building Deep Mines on densities over 80% for the most part. While helpful, it’s not essential for systems to be self sufficient on mineral production. You simply freight in what they lack. Your choice to go free Warp 3 engines may have limited you as well, especially if you’re in a resource poor region. Free Warp 3 engines will undoubtedly be useful later game, but up until now Warp 7 engines have by far been the better choice for me.
Again, as a strategy for picking planets, if you’re looking for large planets with multiple high density resources… good luck with that. However, it’s not impossible to find a decent number of large planets with just one high density mineral for deep mines. And Warp 7 engines give you a better radius in which to search and set up shop.
All leading back to Tier 4 ShipYards, you don’t have to build them on your starting world, and the world you do choose doesn’t have to be self sufficient with all different kinds of mines. So the calcs for a minimum size world for T4 ShipYards are not as bad if you adopt that development philosophy.


#40

That’s why I said 60%+ that’s what that ‘+’ denotes. My HW has 68% beron and 60% everything else. Even my HW sucks for resources.

Yeah, no. My closest planet before they fixed temp research was over 2 days away at w1, and no olzine in the vicinity, and I had a very small surface amount of Olzine on my HW, so I was forced to be frugal with it. I had, HAD to rush Free w2 just to be able to rearm my ships cuz I ran out of limbalt in about 5 days. The free warp allowed me to do a round trip in 2 days instead of 4, that was helpful considering those two planets had no olzine (giants system). NOW w7 could be helpful, but everything now is within a day 1 way at free w3 so that works out better for me in an olzine barren section of space. Ironically, Ziryl I have in large supply. It’s Beron and Olzine that I struggled with early on. Beron has since been rectified.

Have you seen the picture I posted? It is impossible for me. That’s the whole issue here. My sector is literally that bad.

Except when the (originally thought) closest planet capable of housing the shipyard was 30LY away from the closest system with Olzine and Limbalt, out in the boonies, far from any defenses and not easily protected since it’s surrounded by useless systems. And the one system next to it that IS habitable, largest planet is 7367km. Now, I did find out that I have a much closer one on the opposite side of my empire, in a system that is shared with a neighbor that is 16k so it’s not as huge of an issue, since he’s friendly. But that’s gonna be my single T4 yard, the other planets just aren’t worth the risk since they’re out in the boonies.