Lv4 Shipyard cost WAY too much power


#1

2700MWt - I was really, really hoping that wasn’t the case. In this situation, this single building requires a population of 348,000 with Lv1 Power plants, and 312k with Lv3 power plants. And that doesn’t even include farms to reach that population. Basically, if a planet has less than 400k max pop it’s literally impossible to place a Lv4 shipyard. This means any planets less than ~9000km are 100% incapable of supporting a Lv4 SY at all.

Now, here’s the fun part. What about resources? When we add Deep Mines into the equation, the amount of pop needed goes up quite a bit. Let’s go super conservative on these.

Let’s say you have 10 of each deep mines. That’s 25,000*5 for 125k pop, plus 4 more power stations for a total of 141k pop. So, if you want to mine resources on this planet? You need a minimum of 453k pop, and that’s still before farms, climate stations, etc. that’s beyond 9000km planets for Syntis.

So let’s say you have a 12,000km HW as syntis. As such you don’t need climate stations. Using the forumla, this planet would have a max pop of around 567,000. We already know 453k of these are gonna be tied up in the SY, leaving 114,000 population behind. We would need 16 Lv3 Farms, requiring 4 power stations just to reach max pop, for a total of 96k pop of our 114k remaining.

In other words, to support a Lv4 Shipyard you need approximately a 12,000km planet. And this doesn’t allow you to build mines to use the thing!! This is incredibly constricting, and since the majority of players had tiny home worlds to begin with, this is a kick in the metaphorical nuts. Even my decently sized 11k km homeworld is literally impossible to support a Lv4 shipyard.

If you want the aforementioned 50 mines, you will need a ~15,000km planet, which would leave approximately 18k extra for supporting climate stations and the like. These numbers are appalling.

Please drastically reduce the total population cost of the Lv4 Shipyard. Whether it’s power reduction or population reduction, something needs to give. Needing a massive planet to support a shipyard is unfair to those of us who have maybe 5 such planets in a 30LY radius from our home worlds.

It’s 5am here, and I’m sleepy, and my math could very well be wrong, please let me know of any mathematical mistakes here. And if you’re unsure of the formula: Planet Size * Land Mass * 0.525 for Syntis (15,000 * 90 * 0.525).


#2

Well, I´m not entirely opposed to this.

  • Making T4 shipyards this expensive, you must dedicate a planet to it. This makes planets more specialized, that can´t be everywhere. Thus you have varied shipyard levels, creating points of interest.
  • Mountain giants, which would be useless if you could have multi-purpose planets, now have a good use. Although it’s still a pain to ferry in resources from outside the system.

#3

The idea was to have specialized planets, exactly like IkkeTM said. But if it’s too frustrating and complicated to build one, we’ll consider changing these numbers.


#4

Well spotted that man!

I am so glad somebody with more Maths than I, sees this stuff. Ok let me look at this from another angle.

OK I take Mel’s point that its by design to make a T4 Shipyard a rare and precious thing and in turn limit the over production of Dreadnoughts … However…

If that’s going to be a thing then all the points @Ipurgepeople makes need to be made EXPLICITLY Clear very early on in the game. IE at least put a tool tip on the Tech in the tech tree with a recommendation! So if folks are wise they can take this into consideration at a time when they can still expand somewhat freely. Better yet bring in the Wiki links mentioned in the blog post the other week.

Right now corruption is such a break on expansion as to make looking for such a world pretty close to impossible for many players. the Rare few that were lucky enough to find a near 20 Kkm diameter world with all the right qualities early on are now through (and i mean this with all respect) no skill of theirs they have a big big late game advantage.

A primary premise of Outscape was skill, not buy your luck, or just be incredibly fortunate!

Now this is newly introduced and I am glad its been spotted early so yes please tweak the numbers out of the stratosphere and or readjust the Planet spawn algorithm to make sure each new player “Local cluster” has one potential such world someplace. Otherwise the game becomes not one of skill but a lottery.

That said I think I do have an 18 Kkm world with a shipyard hmm…!


#5

@mel I think it does need tweaking a bit. The numbers are definitely too high. I understand the idea of having specialized planets but with the current spawning of planets most home systems will be unable to build one. You need to get a planet with a population of about 700K in order to get all the support structures etc in place (ECs for instance which he hasnt taken into account).

I am thinking power doubled from T3 (ie 1800Kw) and population up by 50% ie 180K would be more reasonable


#6

700k is way over the top, assuming T3 tech.

At T3 tech you run at a rate of 10k population per point of happiness, so assuming something like 10 points of corruption, that comes at 100k pop on that.
19 T3 power plants at 76k pop + 8 farms at 40k pop + shipyard gives 356k pop in total for the shipyard.
Adding that up you get 456k pop or a 9120 km planet to facilitate all that for mankind/PR. Those are available everywhere. In fact I dont colonize below 10k size.


#7

Say Ikke did you miss off the last part of the calculation? I admit I am no expert but I had been finding the formula
Diameter x Landmass Density x 0.75 was working within a few 100’s of the final figures for PR.

Which if correct equates to around a 12.5 Kkm planet. Hardly uncommon I grant you, but again this is for NOTHING but the Shipyard and its direct support buildings you would have to forgo any remaining res on the planet and doesn’t factor in EC to keep the populace from revolting.

As I say maths aint my think so what am I missing sir?


#8

My mistake then, I thought it was 1.0 for mankind/PR, and never bothered to check the math.
Nor do I think it’s neccesarily bad that you forgo any other resources on the planet, as now you have a use for large planets that do not have resources on them, or just beron. The scope of viable planets just increases, no?


#9

I actually agree. A planet like the one I have thats 18Kkm and has nothing but Beron & Limbalt IS a good site for this. But many will not have been so lucky.

I will work at making that a T4 world in due course as I rather like the idea of a world forge that mel hinted at. I shall make sure a comment about the long range planning to make this more feasible goes on the wiki though for some that got shafted on initial expansion its crippling …

I wish I had adopted your 10+ rule I have three worlds with really good res on them but tiny in size (4-7.5 Kkm) Now they are fulla Deep mines which is is not an investment I will lightly set aside.

Such are the joys of this type of game :slight_smile:

When the games pace is finalised (I think we still are progressing too quickly through Tech Epochs) this wont be such an issue as we will have worlds playing out of deposits that will in turn make good candidates for such a re-purposing.

EDIT: Added this as a start, comments & Corrections please? https://wiki.outscape.net/Shipyards#Support_Buildings_needed


#10

I’m of course fully in favor of role-specific and constrained planets. The best shipyards should be a rarity but yes they should also be clearly forecast as such from the tech tree.


#11

Personally I think it’s reasonable that a planet would be required to build dreadnoughts. As long as it’s an accessible planet size and temp range that’s reasonably common then that’s fine by me.


#12

I agree with the specialized planet idea. When the dread rollout was announced I started looking for a 15km+ planet that would be my T4 shipyard. I’m only planning to have one T4 shipyard because I don’t really see needing to produce that many dreads. I have other systems nearby with T2 and T3 yards that will make the rest of the ships for my fleets.

I do wish we could set rally points though. As soon as ships come off the line have them stock up and head to a common point where I can merge them into fleets.


#13

Ships built should be automatically merged into a home defence fleet, with the space station as the flagship. Such fleets would hava a size limit based on the station tier, and not count against the fleet cap.


#14

@IkkeTM

I agree they shouldn’t be able to be everywhere, that’s not the issue here - the issue is it’s WAY too constrictive on the current server.

The average size of all planets in my scanner range is about 9k… If the above math is true (I didn’t see anyone refute it in my brief perusal of the replies, but I’ll do a thorough check tonight), and I need a 15k planet for shipyards, I have 5 possibilities in my sector that can house Lv4 shipyards. Of these 5, only 3 of them have Farsu on world, which means I’ll need either a beefy hauler fleet or a 500MW Transporter to be able to USE the thing.

This whole point is 100% irrelevant as Syntis. We cannot use Mountain Giants. They riot at 17 planets, and we have literally 0 way of dealing with that. Only way to use Mountain giants is to have 16 or less planets, which is not an option as Syntis.

@mel

The idea of specialization is great, and I do not wish to appear that I disapprove of that. But at the very least our home worlds need to be able to host the thing. Because the algorithm allowed so many to have small homeworlds, and the population cost of this particular building is so astronomical on top of the massive reduction in max pop is just too much for this iteration.

If we all had 15k-16k home worlds then it would be fine cuz we could have a shipyard, and mines, and it’d be fair. But only the tiny minority of folks who got a massive homeworld can utilize their home world for a Lv4 shipyard. And that seems incredibly unfair.

I am fully aware that my sector is a fringe example of the spawning algorithm based on conversations I’ve had with other players, and I’ve given up on being competetive because of it - but this makes even my 11k homeworld useless to me. Any HW that’s less than 15k is irrelevant due to this.

That’s because I have to slap a T4 SY on a planet 40 LY away from my homeworld, on the edge of my empire where I can’t realistically defend it, then when they take it I’m incapable of building dreadnaughts to compete. That’s not fair and it certainly isn’t fun. If we have a guaranteed HW size capable of hosting a T4 SY in future iterations (beta, or whatever), then I think the numbers will work fine for the purposes of specialization that you guys want, but I have a feeling an overwhelming majority of the current playerbase has a <15k HW and thus cannot be competitive with those who were simply lucky enough to have one.


#15

I’d be cool with nerfing homeworlds. Make them all too small for a T4 shipyard. Make us hunt for ideal locations and work at hauling 'n protecting resources.


#16

I was thinking that instead of a Home world we need to have a “Start cluster” say 3-6 worlds that between them have all the right stats including world sizes and res densities? Any takers for that idea?


#17

We’re straying a small ways from the topic but the writer of the OP started it :slight_smile:

I’ve figured a starter system would be ideal, but upon actually playing with a TERRIBLE home system I’m actually in favor of home systems being sub par and early colonization could be slowed as well. I think we should all have home systems that we shouldn’t intend to keep forever. This makes the game mostly fair. Though the outlying systems then introduce ‘unfairness’, the player’s likely developed enough in their playstyle to overcome some setbacks (presuming the tech tree is more in-depth with the next reset). This also strikes away the awkward urge for most players to cling to that home. These players are otherwise at risk of rage quitting the game when their home planet eventually falls. Nah, entice them to willfully abandon that home planet within the first month or two and their game will be stronger as will their longevity in subscribing.


#18

I agree with specialized planets.

However, I am more and more in favor of everyone starting off with a single big ass planet and more population.


#19

What if instead we had a handful of templates to choose from? Huge planet, few resources; tiny planet, over-abundant surplus; a few other renditions maybe including key structures, tech or units?


#20

Better starting systems would solve some issues. Some players literally have nothing but a small home world available. Home planet should be able to support far more then is possible atm.