Limiting Fleets without Fleet Caps

Thought I’d create an entirely new thread for this topic, since this is the real issue being discussed in various places.

There was discussion of having a structure in addition to the Shipyard that would restrict the number of fleets that could be retained at any given planet.

I can see a general issue with this entire concept. What about during war time? You are likely to need to house fleets at an unoccupied system because of proximity to the battle area. In this case, the planet isn’t yours, so you do not have the ability to even have a structure built.

I think fleet upkeep is the best option. A cost, in credits, per ship or fleet, based on the flagship’s hull. So a scout’s upkeep is super cheap, versus the most expensive fleet being a fleet with a Dread as a flagship.

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I totally concur with you here.

@DeicidE awhile, with some input from myself and @IkkeTM, had come up with a pretty good list for upkeep. This, in and of itself, could be used as a balancing factor across the board, not just for how many ships you can use, but of what type and from what race (once Ripchee can clone ships).

You know those superior Utility ships that Syntis have, or Ripchee have that can hold vast numbers of ships compared to other categories from other races? Yeah, those could cost several times what others cost in upkeep.

However, I have a suggestion that will further this idea. The real issue with upkeep is the fact that early on it can be a hindrance, while later on, it doesn’t matter cause you have so much more of an income. So, I propose the following change:

The amount of planets you have increases the upkeep costs of the ships you have. Also, the Level and amount of shipyards you have also increases the upkeep costs. Why? Because there is more wear and tear on your ships, not all of these shipyards might be the best, you have a larger territory to patrol. Lots of smaller costs adding up.

So, early on, and if you stay smaller and have strategic ship building, you can actually possibly maintain a larger fleet to empire ratio. Which is good, because you need the excess ships for exploring, resource gathering, and spurts of expansion. It also gives you more strategic choices, without the added work that is built into almost every other system.

Possibly you could link the upkeep chart here so everything is in one place. I’ll think on your additional suggestion, I don’t have any immediate objections, but I haven’t given it enough thought as yet.

The thought in my mind is that the resource types for building ships are fundamentally different than those involved in upkeep. While I’m not against upkeep, it bears remembering that if you can no longer convert farsu into new ships (either because of upkeep or because of artificial limits) it’ll just pile up.
It might be interesting, if upkeep gets implemented, to convert this extra farsu into lower upkeep by means of constructing orbital supply depots/ships or something along those lines.

Upkeep would likely be a cost in credits, not farsu.

which is my point exactly?

Then I’m not understanding your post I guess. It discussed farsu, not credits. I think what we need is @DeicidE 's chart that @Cheatle referenced, then we’ll have something to work with. There’s quite a few posts on the topic, so I’m not certain which one to reference here.

Allow me to rephrase,

The thought in my mind is that the resource types for building ships (farsu) are fundamentally different than those involved in upkeep (credits). While I’m not against upkeep (in credits), it bears remembering that if you can no longer convert farsu into new ships (either because of upkeep or because of artificial limits) it’ll just pile up. (thus you need farsu sinks)
It might be interesting, if upkeep (in credits) gets implemented, to convert this extra farsu into lower upkeep (in credits) by means of constructing orbital supply depots/ships or something along those lines (with farsu).

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Ok that clarifies it for me, thanks. Not entirely sure this is necessary, but certainly worth considering. In mid-game credits become much less of an issue. It will be interesting to see the impact of upkeep on credits if it is implemented.

It’s a bit of an issue across the board with the way this game handles resources, that it’s extremely linear. Beron in, buildings out. Farsu in, ships out. Limbalt in, ordinance out. Thus when the single track hits its roadblock, it’s time to either abandon planets and re-do your empire, or just letting it pile up.

The game needs ways to convert one resource into another, and cover the functionalities that are presently covered with other resources. For example Farsu needs ways to cover for Beron, credit etc. To illustrate: Orbital space stations might have the same abilities as Beron buildings, for a cost in Farsu (that’s much greater), consumed repair ships might repair fleets (instead of shipyards), etc. Similarly, when you have upkeep implemented, you need the ability to spend Farsu on lowering upkeep costs. Some supply depot / staging area where your fleets can eat Farsu instead of credits for example. Likewise, it could be possible to use Farsu instead of Olzine, by constructing (and maintaining) a stellar “road”.

Now you have a choice to make with where your Farsu goes. Do the same for other resources, and you have multiple ways of doing anything and therefor a lot of choice.

I’ve put this in other topics, but since this thread is specific to upkeep I’ll post it here too.

I’d like to see upkeep completely replace our current hard cap on fleet counts. Instead of a hard cap, we’d have an optimum fleet count, and each fleet would use linear scaling as more are added (of course tech/structures could increase that optimum number). A player is able to go beyond that optimum number, but as soon as that number is exceeded the maintenance cost for all fleets increase exponentially, with that being proportional to the difference between total fleets and optimal.

This could run along side the concept of docked fleets. A docked fleet upkeep is 50% of normal, and it doesn’t count toward the active fleet count.

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Thanks, I think we’re all in agreement on it in principle, if we can get the chart that @DeicidE prepared, that might be what you’re looking for or some variation on it.

We might also decide that it is no longer an issue given that the caps are more relaxed in pre-beta, but we’re not far enough along to come to that conclusion as yet.

Very annoyingly couldn’t find on my first pass. Will try again later

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Are caps relaxed? Tech suggests not

They were suppose to be. I think the tech for syntis doesn’t show the right text yet. I know planets are suppose to be 45, not 36, but not sure what the fleet count is suppose to be @joe please advise.

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@Puma try searching for my colourful post “fleet limits are ridiculous”. It was many sleeps ago it was discussed so I forget what it’s content should include

It might be what we are talking about. Sadly it include a slight overreaction to quit :joy:

ok, I remember that one - we’ve all had that over reaction at one time or another, including me, but we love it too much, so we keep coming back :joy_cat:

Fleet admirals is a good way to limit fleets without fleet caps. Or it replaces fleet caps with admiral caps…

What limits fleet size in real life is manpower and maintenance costs, probably a similar system could be designed.

I found your post, but I didn’t see a chart with your recommendations on it there. Just what appeared to be some rough suggestions. Maybe it’s on another post? If you have the chart itself saved maybe you could just share it?

I would like to see upkeep in general a thing on all buildings as a very small sink for resources and credits.

You make a mine, that costs 1 credit per hour and 5 beron per hour to maintain. These would be small sinks, however if you have 50 of them, that would 50 credits/hour and 250 beron/hour, which is significant once you run out of resources and start having to deepmine.

As for getting back on track, I think ships should require population for crew, as a sink for population, I think that it should require credits for upkeep, and I can get behind it also costing farsu.

You could create a depot on a planet that creates so much farsu to upkeep. It would show your surplus everywhere, and every time you build a ship it reduces that amount. When you start running out of farsu to use, it just increases credit upkeep, if you run out of that too, your ships start to become inactive from Oldest to Newest.

I would also like to see something expensive that can convert multiple resources into another, however with some nuance.

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