Endgame? (is there one?)


#1

So we’re about 2 months into A3, and I’m finding myself wondering what’s the endgame here.

I am at colony limit (or close because now I am dropping old planets to make room for new). I am near fleet cap (though not all fleets are full yet). I am about 90% of my empire-wide pop cap (I’ve been dropping old small planets for new larger planets to increase cap). I’ve also extended my borders so much that travel between an edge system to my core can take a day at warp 3.

I can’t grow much economically. Cycling planets takes a long time (a few days to demolish structures, a couple days to ferry resources and pop, and a few days to build up new planets). Pirates spawn to infrequently to be of any interest. Most of the players around me are inactive, so there’s no challenge there. I’ve taken pretty much every planet worth having (still have a couple more to grab, but I need to open colony cap space). Because of planet cap there’s no real reason to go off attacking someone.I’m not going to expand beyond my current borders because logistically it’s not sustainable.

So now what? The only thing left to do is either slowly chip away at T3 farms and whatnot, or to just randomly attack. Ship builds are now 24 hours or longer, my research queue is full for 3 weeks. Most of my system-to-system travel is at least 12 hours. Really, I could check in twice a day for maybe 15 minutes and that would be the extent of my play until the end of A3. That or I could declare all out war on COTP just for giggles.

So my question is this: What’s the plan for endgame activity? Is the intent to just let servers run for 3-6 months and whoever tops the leaderboard wins? Is my only goal now to just try to get to the top of as many leaderboards as I can?


#2

welcome to the club mate. I decided to dedicate a few of my fleets to helping smaller players, come up with your own endgame.


#3

Currently we don’t really have any endgame. At the end of Alpha 2 a large group of players got together at 0,0 and staged a massive free for all with their warfleets, everyone who participated seemed to enjoy that. We the players kinda have to come up with our own endgame goals at this time due to the severe restrictions.

It almost felt like Banksy decided last alpha that his end game goal was to conquer the entire galaxy - he turned multiple alliances against him so that didn’t end well for him. @Hoffy’s endgame goal was to attack Cheatle.

It’s pretty heavily a sandbox at this time. This is why even if we all have our differences, being civilized is so important. Hoffy may be in a rival Alliance from Cheatle, but there was no ill will, there was nothing but GG’s passed around when it was over. So even if someone’s endgame is to roll through the galaxy and steamroll people, as long as we keep it civil, we can all still have fun - albeit those that get rekt will likely have considerably less fun, but that’s the way of it sometimes.


#4

This is Alpha, and so there really isn’t an endgame mechanic yet. I expect they will come out with one before the end of Beta, but you can’t really have an endgame mechanic, implemented at any rate, during Alpha and Beta testing, because the developers need to be able to control when the game ends.


#5

Yeah the “Endgame” is a bit on the “to do list” right now I think.

But a good question: What “should” it be do you think? The Galaxy is persistent sure but only up to a point would a formal “Apocalypse Battle” be a good idea or… will we like the Puppeteers of Ringworld “escape the galaxy” at the end of a set lifespan Galaxy? (This is a bit like the proposition for the forming of the Outscape Galaxy in the games background in any case)

If there is indeed going to be an ongoing Galaxy then yeah we could use something to entertain us when things are fully developed. That might be accomplished by in game events and special encounters perhaps. But if that’s random then it can get boring waiting to “Get lucky” with the one event/encounter/thingy you have so far missed out on and contrary to the stated goal of a Skill focused game so I dunno.

“Tricky” as Deep thought would say.

The one thought I had was if we indeed are races that have “escaped” here because of intergalactic catastrophe in our home galaxy’s maybe at the end the “Natives” will stage a revolt and try and Kick us out… SO massive PvE vs sudden appearance of Arrokken Kracken ships and Mountain Giant led Invasion forces… [I probably need to lie down now]


#6

Endgame depends on the galaxy type. (some ideas for new galaxy options too)

Perma-galaxy

There is no end… I hope the restrictions of A3 are removed or relaxed and players can own vast swathes of the galaxy… With technology needing to be researched constantly for years… Wars will be on the epic scale. A wide array of strategy skills needing to be employed. Alliances Wars will be acute.

Medium term galaxies - Like A3

Restrictions apply as per A3, players will have their eyes on the leaderboards and seek high placement. Alliance level wars may occur on a small scale. Strategy will be different to perma galaxy as maintaining score will be a driver.

Short term galaxies - 2-3 months

Expecting tougher restrictions but faster. Maybe geared to higher level of warfare. low alliance level participation, limited planning, quick fix fun but no scale…

PVE extreme galaxies

NPC pirate like enemies.get stronger over time growing from your usual 11/14 pirates with lasers to fleets of 30-50 ships with all manner of weapons and extreme armour over 10K per ship… fight to survive, last coalition standing, last man standing leaderboards… NPC spawn rates increase over time, NPC bomb from space to annihilate colonies… They are billions!!!

Sandbox galaxies

High variation on restrictions… inter alliance galaxies, free for all, economic challenges, PVE extreme.

All galaxies could have their profiles published with the leaderboard (option)


#7

Perma-galaxy without end and sandbox is the worst thing that can happen with this game.


#8

Sandbox games generally need to thrive on new content being unlocked, or having things to chase.

There could be tech that is only unlocked by achieving milestones (getting fragments of gear/blueprints from pirates, occasionally finding planets with ultra-rare resources/relics, etc) or things that are unlocked via events (it could be seasonal events, or player triggered events).

Having tech/resources that can only be unlocked via combat/invasion adds more benefit to actually getting into fights. If planets have relics (or some other localized boon) then it would increase PvP and add more value to attacking other players planets.

Another option would be to make tech repeatable, with each iteration giving slight improvements. This could increase the tech available many times over without actually adding anything. Plus if the research time increases with each level then you could be looking at an exponential increase in total research time. Another benefit is that it would allow more specialization.

I know people have also suggested missions, or something similar. There’s also been talk of moving to more soft-caps for colonies and fleets. That way expansion slows, but doesn’t hit a hard stop.

As it stands right now, I will have all research completed within 3 months, and shortly after that I should have most of my fleet slots full, with each fleet fully loaded. Hitting nearly 100% completion in an MMO in 5 months seems way too fast.

Also, I am fully aware this is at an alpha stage, and hopefully there’s still a huge amount of content to come. My aim was to provide feedback that after a couple months I’m running out of stuff to do, and get a discussion around what the intent is/should be for end-game stuff.


#9

I do like the option of repeatable tech. The specialization that could be demanded from players would add an extra element of skill, strategy, or personal play-style development. It also makes the game devs have to add far less high level unbalanced stuff to the game for end game players to be content.


#10

Agree on the sandbox assessment. Played Eve for a number of years, but in the end, it bored the crap out of me. Inventions and stuff kept it interesting for a while, but then, ultimately, you had to contend with players and alliances that had been there years before you and all the new stuff being unlocked was pitched at that level. As someone who doesn’t play well with others, generally, teaming and the like…naaaah. ESOL bored the crap out of me. Elite Dangerous rapidly got boring. You need to have stuff to do, either on a group or solo, which is my preference. At the moment, with planet caps and the like, ultimately what’s the point. You need to have a goal or two, or it just becomes a glorified space version of farmerama.


#11

They already said we get to create our own galaxies. Thats sandbox. You can invite players or not…:rofl:

And its almost true that A3 is sandbox…:rofl:


#12

Not sure how fun Personal galaxies are going to be, simply because they will by default have rather few players and it already feels like a graveyard. Not’s not a jab at the game, it’s a big universe and there are only so many of us activly playing so it is what it is for now, but i’m dubious about our own galaxies at the moment. I would love more things to do as above posters have mentioned, group play as well as solo play options. In some ways i like the idea of repeatable tech, but could come into issues if at some point “something” is changed and now all of a sudden Bob’s FOCUSED research for his combat preference is no longer viable OR just so outclassed by other options that it might as well be.

Might be abit different if the research was like my favorite 4x of all time, original master of orion. I’ve never understood why developers all eat at the same trough of “it’s only possible to research one thing at a time”. I loved that in master of orion you allocated resources to research and other functions of the empire and that research could then be further divided into different projects. You might decide that you want to be progressing on just a few things at a time at the expense of an overall development approach, and even in that you may decide you really need to ramp up research on Ionic shielding tech because your aggressive neighbor has started using a different laser technology that is piercing through your current shield systems. You can prioritize resource expenditures into the various overall categories and further refine that.

At some point i’m going to get around to posting some general ideas and see what folks think of a few things, not in particular specific details, but rather general and up for discussion on if it’s even got merit in brainstorming to come up with more refined ideas. But that’s for later, back to the game!!!


#13

If they allow personal galaxies then they need to completely remove all caps. Why have my own galaxy if I can only old 36 colonies. Also, in that situation, we’d need NPCs that were much more engaging than pirates. I would want to see attacks on my colonies, larger enemy fleets, and generally more combat.

As for researching multiple things at once, I’m not sure I see the value. If you are researching 3 techs, and each is 10 RPs then you need 30 RPs. If you get 6RP/hour then split that between the 3 techs, all would unlock after 5 hours. Or you do them in sequence, and you get the first done after 1.6 hours, the second at 3.3 hours, and the third at 5 hours.

Now, if we were in a situation where you were assigning RPs per planet, and there was an RP bonus to hull research on a planet that had a shipyard… now we’re talking. Then I could build planets for specific functions, and the labs on those planets would crank out specific RPs faster. I’m a big fan of having planets more purpose built.

So far I really enjoy this game, as it’s almost exactly what I am looking for in a game. I am hoping that they add a lot more depth, and there’s a lot more options to specialize. I would love it if I could decide to play as an intergalactic trader, and build my empire off my profits. Or if I could be an explorer, finding new planets and resources.


#14

Like in stellaris there is an endgame scenario where there is an AI entity that threatens the every player, as it’s already been said here what if the native races of the galaxy unit and try to get rid of everyone, causing a massive PvE endgame scenario where everyone has to coordinate or die.


#15

Stellaris has a lot of endings, actually. ) But more importantly, there are numerous incentives for PVP. Here it is not, and is not visible, alas. Although the potential of the game is great, but so far it is a sandbox farm without meaning. Which is sad.


#16

I personally like the long term Perma Sandboxed type.

Since they have said we are going to have multiple kinds of servers, several primary perma servers, as well as multiple short to med range servers, and our own personal servers, there are going to need to be multiple levels of “end game” goals.

We need endgame goals for A) Individuals, B) Coalitions, C) Alliances

A - Individual goals >

  1. I believe that we all should have a set of missions that require a very long time to complete. These missions will further some of the story of our respective races. I am thinking 15-20 missions set over a long period of time (months). They will be unlocked based on combinations of technology that you have researched. Each mission gives you more insight into your own history and background, while playing out as sort of a tutorial or test (to test your new tech). Each mission provides quite a few resources and rewards ramping up very fast.

The first 5 missions would all be back to back very early on, then you would have 5 missions per perceived tier. Missions could give resources, credits, blank ships that could be upgraded, ships full population, boosts to a planets production of your choice, growth boost to a planet of your choice.

  1. A place for pirates. Pirates could randomly take over uninhabited systems and step up a base of operations. These pirates would generate more random configurations of pirates, as well as a pirate base. These bases leave behind huge wreckages with loads of resources, but require lots of tech, ships, and so on to take out.

  2. Personal borders through territory claims. Building a station, which is quite expensive and something that can’t be done until around Tier 2, grants you dominion over the system in which is it built, as well as a border that extends our further LY from the system based on the type of station built. T1 > 10 LY, T2 > 15 LY, T3 > 20 LY

You select the color of your border, which emanates out in all directions giving a perfect circle around the system you have taken. When other people see this color, they can only tell its a border marker, they can’t tell whom it is unless they get closer to investigate. You can turn off border markers.

A station is very expensive, requires credits, all 5 resources, population to run. However, the station itself acts a defense platform that must be attacked before anything in that system can be colonized. So to take a system you must first knock out its station. The station will be considered a fleet, and you can customize station designs based on your technology. Each tier of station will have different setups, mainly having much much much higher levels of defense, and only decent fire power. Stations aren’t meant to take on whole armadas, but survive attacks from a couple of fleets.

There can be a limit to stations, however in any system you build a station, the whole system only counts as 1 planet in your planet cap. Though, if that station is destroyed you take penalties that slowly ramp up to the full penalties for that many planets.

  1. Creating wonders for your civilization. Each planet can only handle a single wonder, and conditions on that planet must be right for the wonder to be built. Each race will have a set of wonder which is unique only to them. Each wonder will give major bonuses to that planet or that system.

You will need things like the exact correct temperature, landmass, the correct amount of prerequisite buildings. Once all conditions have been met (including technology) then the wonder will open up on that planet to be built. All mining, building, and shipyard functions on that planet will cease until the wonder is built. Each wonder will have different power needs, population needs, etc. Wonders do not generate corruption, in fact wonders generate desirability (even Syntis).

Wonders will do things like: Boost happiness on the planet by several points removing the need for as many ECs, Boost mining output by 50% for T1/T2 mines and take Deep Mining from .36 to .5 on that planet, create a localized subspace energy output that increases shield levels for all friendly ships in that system (giving all ships 500 shields or 500 extra shields), Increasing the inherent population modifier for that planet (Humans/PR go from 0.75 > 1, Ripchee 1.125 > 1.375, Syntis 0.525 > 0.755), a massive satellite array that increases scanner and sense range by double for what ever Tier of scanner is on that planet.

Each race will have a set of wonders they can build, and each expansion or update can add more. Wonders can be captured by other players, and sensors can tell you if there is a wonder and what type of wonder is on a planet.

FOR INDIVIDUALS this gives a lot of goals, like expanding territory, finishing missions, taking out and testing builds on pirates, as well as finishing all the various wonders of their race. This also generates a lot of interactions between players, as pirate hubs will possibly attract multiple people, personal borders will create tensions, and wonders will be up for grabs.

B - Coalition Goals >

  1. Sectors, Sectors, Sectors. The game is already divided up into 100 LY by 100 LY squares, the devs spawned everyone into the game by a central core, and clockwise from that core people were deposited 5 at a time per square. The core is 4 squares, and it goes clock wise from those 4 squares in how it deposited players. The current galaxy is split into 4 quadrants that are 20x20 squares, or 40x40 squares for the whole galaxy.

I believe that we should have some kind of claiming mechanism for claiming sectors, similar to the above on stations for claiming systems. A coalition can claim a sector with a coalition station (which is much more expensive and would require several people to a dozen people to create a sector station). Once a sector station is claimed no other formed coalitions can place individual border stations in that sector until the sector station is destroyed, or they replace it with their own.

Individuals, Coalitions, or Alliances set to friends or allies with the Sector Coalition can still place individual border stations in that sector.

Sector Stations not only making it impossible for others to build individual stations, but they make it possible for coalition defense stations to be built in each system that coalition members are in reinforcing the individual stations.

Sector Stations can take on half a dozen fleets or more before dying, while Coalition Stations are minor defense platforms that are no better than regular stations.

  1. Claiming sectors has benefits. For each coalition member part of the coalition that claimed a sector they get a coalition planet cap and a coalition fleet cap. You must designate which planets and fleets are considered coalition marked. If you lose a sector you lose access to those planets and ships until the sector is regained. Your planets and ships can be destroyed and invaded like normal while you have no control over them. However everything works normally, you just have no access to build, or use them in any way.

  2. Coalition Resources, Upgrades, and Projects. For every sector that a coalition claims they gain coalition resources. These resources can be traded to other coalitions or used for upgrades and coalition projects. Coalition resources are generated via active members. For every active member that has signed in and and played the game at least once in a 24 hour period will generate 1 coalition resource per day.

Coalition Resources can unlock better Coalition Stations and Sector Stations to be built, similar to how research points work, however they are allocated and used to purchase the upgrade. Coalition Points can also be used to create Coalition Projects, Coalition Projects work very much like Wonders, however they have an effect on coalition members for the entire sector.

Coalition Projects can be taken by other Coalitions giving them said bonuses in that sector. The Sector station doesn’t have to be taken down to capture Coalition Projects. However the individual station, and Coalition Station in the system it was created do have to be destroyed.

C - Alliance Goals >

  1. Creating Alliances. Alliances can only be created by coalitions that have claimed sectors, if a coalition has no more claimed sectors they are withdrawn from the alliance and lose all alliance benefits.

Within the alliance all coalitions can claim planets/systems in any of their allies territory.

  1. Alliance Territory and Stations. Alliances can create stations similar to Sector Stations in the same systems as Sector Stations. These are defensive stations that are required to be destroyed along side a sector station before a sector can be claimed.

All sectors that have an alliance station register as part of the alliance as well as the coalition owners.

  1. Alliance Upgrades and Projects. Alliances can accept coalition points which can be used to purchase upgrades for Alliance stations. Points can also be used to create alliance projects, much like coalition projects they can be captured by alliances or coalitions.

Alliance Projects are massive feats of engineering or scientific discovery. These can effect all planets, ships, stations, etc within an alliance.


#17

In regards to the Cheatle (noun: an extremely long forum post), written by @Cheatle, specifically regarding coalition/alliance projects:

I’m thinking perhaps we have coalition/alliance research that can be queued by the owner of the system wherein the coalition/alliance station is located.

These researches would use Coalition Points (CP) instead of Science Points, in order to complete the research. These Coalition researches would give the requisite technology to grant the benefit options mentioned by Cheatle. This essentially changes CP from a token to something akin to Science Points.

In addition to being active, all players (regardless of coalition status) would have a repeatable research on their trees that can be done to earn CP. This would give every player something to research. This research would be extremely long though, longer or on par with the longest on the tree. This is not something to be pumped out in large numbers, but the occasional increase in points that gives coalition members a way to contribute to these projects via their research capabilities. If you’re not in a coalition, your points add up, and upon joining one, they will be added to the total for that coalition. Furthermore, we could have these CP be tradeable to NPCs for massive amounts of resources or credits, for those not interested in coalition play.

The CP then that is generated would go into the Coalition research. However, as these points are generated over time as well as via activity, I think there needs to be some base amount for just members within the sector or perhaps the entire coalition, so let’s say 1 per member for now.

So if you have 8 members in the coalition, you’d have 8 CP base, you’d generate a maximum of 8 per day from being active, which can give a boost for 24 hours, so for that 24 hour period you would have 16 after everyone’s logged in. When the next day comes, if 7 people log on then you’d have 15 for the next period. Let’s say on the next day everyone logs on and two people generate an extra point via research. This brings our minimum from 8 to 10, and all 8 people logged on giving a CP total of 18 for that day.

In this manner, CP would grow slowly over time, based on the longevity of the coalition, the science focus of its members, and how active its member base is.

The Projects as mentioned by Cheatle would then be funded via taxation & donation efforts of its members. If, for example, a project required 3 million credits, 10 million Farsu, 1 million Ziryl, then the members can donate to that total by sending fleets to the Coalition station, and dumping the resources off there, as well as depositing credits if they wish.

This gives players something to do actively in regards to coalitions. It will make the player feel as if they’re actually contributing to the cause by making them put forth the effort of manually freighting the resources over to build the projects.

So, in this fashion, the Coalition Research would give you access to specific Coalition Projects, as well as different benefits for the sector, to be transmitted via the sector station. Using completely arbitrary numbers here, let’s say there’s 5 options for a sector, and you can choose 2. So you would research the ones you want for the sector. These bonuses can be changed once per month, depending on needs of the coalition, at the sector station.

Similarly, the Alliance-related stuff is a step above that. Each Alliance will get a base amount of CP for projects. For simplicity, let’s say 5CP per Coalition in the Alliance. In addition, all Coalitions within an Alliance will be able to decide whether or not to contribute their CP to the Alliance instead of to the coalition. It’s an either or thing. So once your coalition project is complete, and there’s an alliance project in the works, you can convert your coalition’s CP towards the Alliance goal instead. This can be changed once per week at the coalition station.

For example, let’s say we have 5 coalitions in an Alliance, and there is an Alliance research ongoing. 2 of the 5 coalitions have contributed 16 and 11 CP to the cause already, and the other 3 coalitions are working on their own projects. At this moment, we have 25CP base, plus 27 in contributions, for a total of 52 CP for the Alliance Project. Let’s say a week later one of the 3 holdouts finished their project, and decided to contribute their 14 CP to the Alliance project, this would bring the total up to 66CP.

In addition, there could be a new classification of ship called Coalition Freighters. These freighters can be built at Coalition Stations, and their sole purpose is the transfer of resources from Coalition Stations to the Alliance Station, and would be controlled by the Coalition Station owner that built the ship. The ship would essentially be a massive cargo fleet, capable of moving several hundreds of thousands of resources at a time. But they move slowly, only Warp 2, so they will need to be escorted, or else they could be ambushed by hostile players, and their resources pillaged.


This system ensures that every member, down to the basic grunt, in a coalition can be helpful in every layer of Coalition and Alliance activities, aside from the few managerial aspects exclusive to the coalition/alliance owners. It gives players a reason to log in, if gives them a reason to move their ships, and it gives players a reason to explore, track, hunt, and ambush enemy alliances within their territories, giving an element of war, espionage, and persistence to the game that we currently lack.

This system would somewhat favor larger groups, however, even smaller groups can put together an ambush team to attack hostile Alliance Freighters and reap the benefits with enough preparation. While this may not necessarily be end-game, it definitely expands gameplay up to the end-game stage, whether that’s complete galactic domination, total annihilation of all rival Alliances, or some sort of “win condition project” that can only be built by one alliance in the entire galaxy, that everyone knows exactly where it is, and must be held at the end of the galaxy in order to “win” some sort of alliance title.

This opens a lot of avenues and gives many more layers of gameplay.


#18

@Cheatle @Ipurgepeople

An there it is… proper 4X in MMO RTS universe… Thanks guys just what I needed to read tonight…