Contradictions on civs. imo

@mordae, that wrench has been ricocheting around. Hope it scores a meaningful hit soon.

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srry about taking so long to respond back…

lets see if we can translate this game into something that’s easier to understand.

lets talk about certain types of people. rich vs poor people.

synth: its a rich person, with no emotions, only cares about learning and bettering themselves, is 7 ft tall, and doesnt like to fk much; who gets a free house with learning stuff but is capped at ## (what ever the hard cap is atm for main 2), doesnt need to pay taxes on the amount of houses he owns, doesn’t have to pay taxes on anything he buys for his house, gets to tolerate higher temp ranges due to research and gets permanent free car spots to park his fancy cars after he learns more stuff. he also get 35% of what they earn as profit always (and doesnt change) and doesnt have to pay the govt anything for this lovely 35% and they can have a roommate and potentially earn 100% from them. they dont need to spend time to build there house up, and doesnt need to pay the gov’t for anything they build.

bios: its a poor set of people who likes to fk a lot and are affected by happyness. ripchee are midgets who like $$, MK are normal people who are great with there hands and can insta build cars, Pr are bully’s who like the big toys and snakes are thugs (they get taxed extra by govt if they don’t kill there other roomates). the govt hates bio’s and must pay on each house they own and are not capped like the richboys. the more houses they own, the more they need to pay to the gov’t on every house. whenever they buy new stuff or upgrade it, the govt also likes to tax them on it too. they can change how much they earn, but the more they earn, the more they have to pay the govt. the lower there happyness gets, the less pop is produced, and then they riot around and breaks things in his house. he can build double and quad garages for there fancy cars but if he tosses the house, bubii garages. they doesnt like the cold, and doesnt get along with the richboy as a roommate. his roommates (but for the richboy) are in the same pickle and have to pay off the govt too depending on how much they earn. they dont need to learn much as they have no racial bonus’s that affect the house from tech (i said bonus’s like synths temp change, or perm fleet spots). sure they can have as many houses as they want, but its going to cost them hours n hours just to build a foundation every time they get a new house.

for those that read this and still don’t understand, corruption is a form of tax. govt is game.

lets give more details on my many points I have stated above in original topic.

  1. Snakes as a main civ does not need to change, and i agree all planets should be d.popped for late game potential. My problem is when snakes are a secondary pop for other civs. @Rae Snakes have -0.500 when they are not eating people. as a secondary pop, other civs can not control bloodlust, thus they don’t get any bonus’s from bloodlust, but must pay corruption for not feasting. this should be disabled due to the dev’s not wanting to give bloodlust bonus to other civs as this is a unique trait for playing snakes as a main civ and would make them the goto secondary civ for most planets. so why have the -0.500? just make them 0.000 and complete disable bloodlust when snakes are a secondary pop. this cause and affect or reward and punishment is snaked unique trait. so don’t force it on other people. u know when I go shopping, I pay for anything I get. as snakes, I pay something but receive nothing in return. all other races don’t have this -0.500 negative place on them as a secondary pop. also pointing out that snakes are 0.8 for atk power as defenders when a secondary pop, which means they are the WEAKEST civ when helping to guard your planet. there is no benefit for having snakes as a seconday pop when ripchee are better when it comes to choices. u get more kittens then snakes on same LM %, kittens have 1 atk power vs snakes 0.8 atk power (due to no bloodlust) and kittens don’t cost u an extra 0.500 corruption for having them as a roommate.
  2. forcing synth’s secondary pop to a set 35% makes sense. u might wonder why but they already get loads of benefits, and they never have to worry about corruption/happiness for there 35%. does any1 know how much 35% is for a bio? its -1.025. that’s 11 t1 hc and 2 energy plants just to reach that same amount. sure, from civilization is +1.000 so bio’s can mostly counter each other if u want to think that. also if they keep taxes at 0% bio’s also get a bonus +0.500. I can tell ya, no1 plays bios perfectly where EVERY planet is at 35% at all times like synth get.
  3. Adding a cap to Tax’s still makes it a soft cap and not a hard cap like synth. by making it so u can not exceed -1.000 corruption an hr, it means when u build a new base, u cant tax those pop while happiness is being fixed from the corruption of owning too many planets. (27 over limit is 4.40, add in the civ and tax bonus +1.5, that’s 2.9 corruption.) this would slow down bio’s and make it an even playing field with synth. the reason the devs put a hard cap on bio’s for -1.000 corruption/hr is because it would be almost impossible to get new bases later on, without the help of some1 lower (less planets owned) who can already re-build it and gift it to u with the set amount. people are using this to exploit tax as u can be -12happyness/hr and only be charged -1 happyness/hr …
    5/6) as stated above. I like #6 more and 5 should just be thrown out as an idea… reason is because it lets people more free control on their planets, less micromanaging (synth players would also quit playing synth), and would bring fairness to the game. ive had 2 buddies try out the game, and they both quit due bio’s getting punished for building buildings. no1 in real life likes getting taxed twice. u get punished for the amount of planets u own, and the more u own, the more u have to pay to sustain it (keep pop happy so they don’t riot) adding in a punishment for building mines, transporters and other buildings to “SLOW” bio’s growth, is a bit unfair. synth has to just research (which they can influence how fast this process goes) and they get new planets for free by just waiting. they also get to build stuff and not worry about any consequences, thus no micromanaging, no penalties, quicker planets being built.
  4. bio’s have a building called Control Center that gives 2 and 4 fleet spots and no tech for a permanent increase for fleet spots. synth just has to research and bam they got permanent fleet spots. bio’s have to pay pop, energy, and time for each one they have to build whereas synth just has to pay time as both races have to increase RP/hr to keep up with the latest techs and once u have research all techs, u can disassemble labs >.<. the problem I have is if I toss a planet, or my planet gets glassed (srry saja), u lose out on fleet spots. so whereas synth have a permanent and fixed amount of spaces, im recommending, that bio’s also get a set of techs to permanently increase fleet size. not as much as synth gets but just a bit >.< also giving synth command centers, means that if they invade a planet, and win it and it has 1, they don’t have to disassemble the building. they get their own set of bonus’s too. its not as big as bio’s but at t1 is 1 and t2 its 2. this way synth can have more fleet spots and if they toss a planet, synth also get punished. reward and punishment having variable fleet spots. also in main 1 the devs took away synths ability to use bio’s command centers. @ian_aurgnet
  5. the special mod for synth: repair mods. I think I did an excellent job describing it above. in real life, there is no car out there that can fix itself without the proper materials and parts. so if synth want to use a repair mod, they should have to pay the price to fix it. atm they can crawl thru t1-3 minefields and just repair along the way. this might take longer to get into a system but this is something that’s broken and doesn’t make sense.

@Rae there is major problems in the game and some need some serious changes to balance them out (like glassing a planet, minefields, etc) I complained at the 0.5 for snakes getting punished for being a secondary pop. I did make mention about a good change for taxes (by adding a softcap to taxes on bio’s and changing synths secondary pop), yet u didn’t comment on that. whats your thoughts? id like to hear them.

@Lady_Aura you cant tell me that u have never been to the bar and seen a female get free drinks all night? I got a few friends who do this most weekends (I pity there livers) and this is where that example comes from. Greed comes from all beings (robots are a being, look at iRobot, the matrix, and a few other movies) if robots didn’t have greed, they would never want to change or better themselves, so why do they want more planets, why do they want more fleet spots, why do they want to change themselves so they can tolerate extreme temps? this is a form of GREED. why should bio’s have to pay twice (the building cost then a corruption cost) on most buildings when synth doesn’t? that doesnt seem fair. also bio’s already pay for amount of planets by the corruption from planets tab. so don’t say they need a secondary corruption factor to slow them down on planetary development. Next the econ at the end. synth have less micromanaging, and also a permanent 35% tax on there civ. bio’s cant always keep 35% or above on all there planets as they will hit 0 happiness and start to riot. also lower happiness means lower home guard and lower pop growth, synth doesn’t have this issue and have some high atk power on there troops. also u saying that the top 20 econ players know what they are doing, just means they are doing something extremely right or wrong. the game states as a negative to the synth race, that they have a fix tax to lower income. this was suppose to slow them down. but that’s not true due to d.pops (friends building 48 t2 hc (takes about 3-4 days for a bio to prep a planet for synth btw if pop and res is available) and passing it to synth civ so they can 100% tax the bio civ for an income boast, then all they need to do is build Depositors (and potentially move govt build over). synth only get t1 happy centers for this reason so if they wanted to 100% tax bio’s they would need to build almost 90 t1 happy centers, which would eat up a lot of pop… thus lower potential econ.
@Slamz I totally agree with u but the bonus to happiness is capped at 10% for synths secondary pop. all secondary pop, for all civs, will always match your civ for happiness. whats the point in giving a happy bonus, if synth can never be 100% happy anyways >.>

Since I think ive answered the few people who commented on this post, I hope they will comment back. maybe give idea’s on how to fix this balancing issue better.
by translating the game to real-life applications, u can actually find easier and more effective means to balance the game, imo. like minefields as an example. I stated fleet spots as garages. that means fleets are cars. if u look at roads that cars travel on, police use spike strip’s to stop and slow cars and u protect your houses with walls/fenses. u can also buy self repair tires that heal if u get a nail in them but if u run ur car into a wall, ur engine or something else on the car doesn’t always work. see real life example at work :stuck_out_tongue:

i know they took away the control centres for syntis i dont know why you taged me for this

id like to point out our farm and especaly our labs cost us alot more then bios (heavy power useage)

also while you say “synth just has to research and bam they got permanent fleet spots.” id like to point out thats 38,845 extra rp we need to spend for those fleets that bios dont have to worry about and can put towards other more useful things while just poping a building to expand their fleets

tagged for that comment u made: I didn’t clarify what I meant on original post and was clarifying.
thus why I said that bios should also have the choice for researching extra fleet spots too. less then what synth gets. and synth gets command centers, but less compared to bios. both have there + and minus. one side have more “free” fleet spots and other civs have more disposable fleet spots. if a synth gets glassed and only has 1 planet to his name but lots of fleet still, he still has loads of fleet spots to use and that doesn’t hurt him as he researched those spots, whereas when a bio gets glassed, only has 1 planet left and loads of fleet still, they cant build or split fleet till they build more Command centers.

my idea: synth can choose to build command centers to supplement fleet spots instead of teching into it as a priority, doesn’t that sound better? and bios have slightly more permanent fleet spots and doesn’t have to worry about building command centers as much while they are expanding there empire if they also choose to research it. and last but not least, if any civ throws out a planet with a command center, they are both being punished for lower fleet spots.

i really dont think that would be a good change because then whats the point of makeing them different then? the way things are is to make the different races DIFFERENT i see so many posts even in this section always going on about " well this race should get this thing other race has" the reason they have them is to make them different! else why have different races at all? make one with all the stuff and be done! but that would be boring

This game has much bigger problems than some minor syntis tax balance issues. The devs should start to implement some solid persistent universe mechanics, otherwise i dont see this game succeed as an mmo, as you simply cannot just use basic 4x game mechanics in a persistent universe, it just does not work.

yay feedback. i like debates but can u give me more info then just stating that they would be the same then… I gave detailed explanation on what I think could be improved and balanced and why I thought it. we can even work out the numbers to show it if u want. I have no problem doing so :stuck_out_tongue:
I disagree as fleet spots is something that all empires need. synth earn there by research and that’s it. they cant lose it. bios have to research command centers and then spend res, creds, pop and time on it. then if they lose the planet, they lost it. they don’t have a stable ground. my suggestion still emphasis’s there strong points and there weak points. u build ur base on solid ground, not the beach where the wind, or water can make it disappear…

if all bio’s and synth exchanged so synth had to earn there fleet spots from buildings and bio’s earned there fleet spots from research, would u be happy about that? I doubt it. that’s more micromanaging for synth.

synth identity should be from its abilities, and playing style, not a core mechanics. have a buff, or a debuff on core mechanics is fine, but the difference of earning fleet spots from permanent research and earning from disposable buildings, is like night n day. both have there uses, and are outside the world, but completely different in most aspects. if I had the choice of playing bio with the ability to research fleet spots over making command centers, I would. I 100% would. that’s because that’s 1 less micromanaging thing id have to worry about.

next, I would add more racial specific buffs, that are exclusive to ones race. I wouldn’t give bloodlust out, or give the temp ability to other races. maybe give a small temp buff in research, so they are more “adaptable” but meh Idc about that. im not saying all crs should have 4 weapon slots like synth, or that all cv’s should have the ability to have minelayers attached to them or even all races getting a repair module. those are unique traits to synth. what I pointed out is a feasible change. these changes are realistic and some are needed to create a more even playing field. all classes have there strengths and weakness’s, but synths econ issue, is not an issue after they start to d.pop worlds and they learn the temp tech.

next main 2 is probably not the final server. as rae pointed on out, longevity and core issues of a 4x mmo games. those are actually quite hard to balance in some cases, like balancing new players vs older players. some things im sure are not implemented yet in the game, like not restarting from scratch when u get glassed or want to restart somewhere else, meaning u relocate farther out with all ur research still done so u can focus on rebuilding ur empire and not have to worry about researching as much…

but rae, as I learned in the military, if u make sure all the small things are tidy and fixed, all the bigger stuff will be cleaned too. meaning u fix and balance the small stuff, as u never know if they will actually fix a bigger problem down the road. and u might think my suggestions are small, but they aren’t. they are about balancing the game. balancing and keeping uniqueness isn’t easy but somethings do need to change for the better.

give feedback on all my 5 points I stated above and tell me how they are already balanced ingame please. I might be overlooking something.

What is that have to do with synts tho? If you want to draw parallels between Outscape factions and our real world then you must find the right example. For synts, it would be nothing like humans, you should look at ants or bees for a better match.

I saw plenty of movies about AI and robots and because of that I believe a true AGI lead robot empire would behave more like a hive of insects than humans. All of the little robots would act to maintain and improve their empire. They would not try to rob their neighbors because they would have no possessions. They would have no use for money inside their empire because every single one of them is built to do their jobs and they can do it 24/7 (with the occasional maintenance break).

Every little machine would be programmed so it knows that it is in its best interest to do its job. Because without the “hive” it would not survive and would be no point to its existence.

Meaning of greed in English

greed

noun [ U ]

UK /ɡriːd/ US /ɡriːd/

C1

a very strong wish to continuously get more of something, especially food or money:

I don’t know why I’m eating more - it’s not hunger, it’s just greed!

He was unsympathetic with many house sellers, complaining that they were motivated by greed.

(Robots do not need food or money.)

Buildings do not cost corruption. They can have happiness penalty. I think, you have two mechanics mixed into one.

There is happiness and then there is corruption. Happiness is a planetary value. Buildings can have positive or negative modifiers on them. Corruption is an empire wide value that causes a negative happiness modifier on every planet.

You could look at our world as an example. I bet you are not happy about politicians stealing government money. Also, I would think you would not be thrilled to have a huge power plant or factory built next to where you live. There you have unhappiness from corruption and buildings.

With more planets comes more local leaders and they all will steal more and more. :frowning:

I think, corruption could be done much better. If there were upkeep in the game corruption could increase the empire total for that. Another option could be decreased production and income on planets with corruption but then we would need a new structure that combats corruption.

And it does. Imagine if synts could set their own tax at 100!

Yeah, planet trading as a feature is just a built in exploit. Also, the game wants to reward those who fight with the extra second population, but even the original mechanic can be easily exploited to boost your allies. And it is more sever in case of cats + sneks because they have the largest pop multiplier out of all the factions.

one thing i can say for sure as a syntis i may only have 1 or 2 duel poped worlds other then natives mostly because the hassle of them makes those planets less useful to me as i cant mine on them i can only use themf or credits my main planets are all pure syntis

Yep, that’s pretty much how to do it. You get a couple of solid dual pop worlds for money and everything else is mostly single pop or giants.

I think it’s a pretty bad point of the game, though, that even with the income nerfs in Main2, Syntis can still cure their entire income problem with just 1-2 dual popped planets.

I wonder what the game would be like if individual planet income was hard capped at 5k/hr. It would really change everyone’s income strategies and would present a larger problem for Syntis. They could still fix it, but not with 1 planet.

i never said 1-2 was all “syntis” needs i said its all I need im not a in a major war im not under heavy eco strain (yet) and i have many dual poped worlds that are natives those are ALWAYS useful (other then skrgons they suck :stuck_out_tongue:)

GREED by definition: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food. robots with intelligence have these traits, if they didn’t, why they got big ships with weapons (power) and why do they invade other civs (wealth, power)? lol.
I did not confuse happiness or corruption. they are actually the same currency, just one is positive and other is negative imo. they are both listed under 1 currency “HAPPYNESS”. yes Corruption is global, and negative happiness is on everything (corruption is 1 line in the happiness formula). you cant be happy about corruption or invasions or unemployment, but u can be happy from civ, tax and infrastructure. i refer to all negative happiness as corruption as its the main form of negative happiness ingame, definitely when u go above 35 planets above immunity. u spend a few days fixing corruption to make population happy again.
happy centers increase happiness, and energy, pits/mines, transporters, climate control, terraformers and fleet dock, all add to negative happiness also referred to as corruption. you also have negative happiness for the amount of planets over ur “corruption immunity”. These things all add up. to counter negative happiness, u must spend creds, beron, time and pop to build happy centers. at 4.40 corruption (23 planets over immunity) it costs 115k pop, 74k beron, 11300 creds, and 10 hrs of your time, just to be 0 (neither negative or positive happiness) happiness. for synth that’s 45 mines being built for the same cost in pop. if bio’s wish to build any building with negative happiness (corruption), they have to add more hc, which cuts into there pop, res, creds and time. i will stand by what i said. bios are double hit with negative happiness every time they make a new planet. bios only get 80 hrs to fix happiness. i like the corruption values on how it slows me down on the amount of planets i own. i wouldn’t change that. i want negative happiness taken off most buildings. this way once i fix corruption, i don’t need to worry about negative happiness unless i want to tax my planet. i can start growing the planet and working on account development.

if bio’s wish to strip the planet, they figure out if they can do it in under 80 hrs and how much pop to throw at it. im doing it right now. no need to worry about corruption, i mean negative happiness, and just farm a planet for its natural resources. not worrying about DM (Deep mining) and just moving on to next planet. i sound like the aliens from independence day…

Also you said “think how much tax a synth can make if they could tax themselves at 100%?” here u go. that’s what most synths can accomplish easily with a secondary pop on planets (mainly ripchee abuse as snakes have a 0.5 unhappiness penalty)

image

that’s a synths in main 2 >.>

capping incoming on a planet to 5k/hr isn’t a solution. that’s like saying a rich person can only make $100 bucks a day to match the poor people that work for cheap. hard capping synths second pop to 35% to match synth would slow down synth and adding a softcap to bio’s to cap them on tax so they can not exceed -1 happiness. this would still allow every1 freedom, but change up early game quite a bit as bio’s would have to balance happiness better and not just 100% tax the hw xD.

While you wont listen to it anyway but id like to point out nost of our ships and other things cost more credits then other races equlevent item

actually i do listen and read. everyone pays for ships. unlike buildings which has the same price tag, all ships have different prices depending on class, tier and loadout.
your ships might be more expensive compared to others but unless ur at war consistently, and constantly losing ships, u will eventually have a surplus of creds. every1 will have a surplus of creds. synth also have some of the best ships ingame for certain purposes. synth corvettes having ML, means it has more tactical advantages then others in its class and can move there ML at w9 and be fuel efficient, synth have repair mod, synth have a super size cargo boat. there is a list of unique qualities for every race. some are good and some are bad. are u saying that synth ships cost 2x more? 1.2x more? how much more compared to other civs? just stating they are more expensive, is just stating a small fact of life. also u stated “other things.” what is this “other things” that synth pay for with creds that are more expensive then all other races? jw

Ya i thought the buildings were alittle different my mastake but ya ships are more costly not by alot (x2) maybe 10% at most they also cost more in farsu (ofc im only talking base hull as fit can change it vastly) and compared to other races syntis ships use A TON more fuel basicly 3/5 engines or its a home defence fleet

A few other things (based on the wiki):

  • Synt “farms” need 10/20/30 power (organics need 10/10/10)
  • Synts do not benefit from their bio-farms (unlike organics+organics dual pops where both pops benefit from it)
  • Synt happiness buildings only have a T1 version, so synts have to dedicate 3 times more population to combat unhappiness from 100% tax rate.
  • Synt happiness buildings need 20 power (organics buildings need 15 at all levels)
  • Synt research labs need 100/200/400 power (organics labs need 100/100/100)
  • Synts have 0.7 population multiplier
  • Synts have 0.8 growth multiplier

Those are the cons, but you didnt list any of the pros, for example no race can move the landmass dial as much as syntis nor can any other race cohabitate as easily as syntis (given upgrades and yes, happiness). These advantages should not be overlooked and are to no degree minor. Other perks are smaller, but relevant in that syntis do not need to build any structures that support fleets.

I get that the hurdles your all listing are significant, but so are the pros I have listed.

I know, I had the impression that Zylon wanted to see a list of cons. :neutral_face:

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id like to point out that syntis also gain the least for moving the landmass to 90%
each race at thair optimal: https://gyazo.com/8afec289bc80ac3f494176c2805b3aa7
each race at 90%: https://gyazo.com/da6a2513e0ff2b451b770bfd918a7bef
and for fun each race at 50%: https://gyazo.com/90b4d09e37a8ca70d0d81418709f9bf7
if you look unless a syntis is at 90% every other race out pops them massively

I do not have to click any links to know what you said is true, but I also know that it’s easiest for syntis to gain more from double popping than any other race.

Its not a straight line of who is better or worse, it’s several tangled threads, each is better in certain conditions than others and the bottom line is they are all different.