Changes needed to Defense and Invasions

@joe

After a bevy of invasions and attacks I can say that defense still needs a bit more work.

Since invasions cause a massive penalty to happiness while the invasion timer counts down, even a small force that is going to die, can keep you in perpetual invasion until your citizens riot and you lose the planet. IMO this is a weakness of the system, and I am not entirely sure there should be a penalty to happiness without some other balancing factor.

Second, because of the above perpetual invasions, the defender doesn’t have enough time to recoup at all. I believe there should be some kind of cool down between invasions. At least 50% of the time it took to do the invasion, if not longer.

Lastly, and this especially, ORBITALS ARE TOTAL SHIT, I am being blunt here, because they lack any punch, any bite. I have a guy sending in scouts that aren’t even getting killed, then invading,the leaving before his full fleet gets hit by the Orbitals. I have some solutions I will present:

  1. Decrease the damage of Orbitals further, and make them fire every 20 seconds. I would say 20 damage for Small, 30 for T2, and 35 for T3. Then make the invasion force sit there for at least 5 minutes while dropping “drop pods.” This means full fleets will be battered when launching, and if they don’t have enough armor they will be killed before the invasion begins.

  2. Have your ODS check how many ships there are: If there is 1 to 4 ships, the ODS should fire rapidly at a smaller damage WITHOUT refreshing. If there are 5 or more ships the ODS fires likes normal with refreshes.

AI targeting should be set to Ships with troops on board > Ships that can bombard > Ships that have weapons (total weapon damage for fleet) > everything else

Both of these solutions eliminate scouts using up your ODS. Also it means that you are going to take some damage for your efforts, instead of sailing in without any damage at all.

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The aspect with happiness is a really strange and unreasonable thing but ur suggestions about OD will makes planets untouchable if such changes comes to the light. (On the precondition that “droping pods” is impossible to do while in cloak) Do u wish to change the game to the farmville where player can only lose his fleets and only newbies can lose the planets? Such a thing is a changing of concept.

The matter u talking about where an atack where u were fight againt superior forces under cloak. U had no minefields u had no detectors u had no any fleets able to win against that forces. So why mere orbital defence wich cost insighnificant price in research points and resourses to build it must counter such a great treat? Moreover while do it in auto-mode. This game is not casual one.

I suggest another thing. Add the option for Orbital Defence to have 2 modes: auto and manual. Auto will works as always and manual will shoot when u push the button. Then tactic with scouts will not works. Actually u already can do such a thing if u dismantle OD and then cancel dismantling process after enemy enter ur orbit. It’s just not many people use it. So making it a bit handy and obvious to everyone is a good thing.

ATM OD is already a great thing wich provides 50% anti-invasion wich with x4 army streght is an ability to make the planet untakable. An its fire rate is big enough to make bombardment impossible wich makes bombers useless. (if it still need 30 minutes to strike (since I’m not shure about that timer))
The only weak point is an early stage of game where players have no x4 tech. )))

Your fleet is giving me a -18 happiness right now, I find it odd that I have to deal with that for the full invasion.

I disagree with you, ODS needs to be able to differentiate between scouts and actual targets. You are literally just sacrificing scouts to stop the ODS, so you can come in and land forces. I don’t think this should be a viable tactic.

Second, I literally just took that planet right before you attacked.

Also, that is called Cheating Pepe, and I am not going to cheat or exploit.

That isn’t entirely true, Ripchee can still take most planets, you failed to say that Ripchee have an advantage that no one else has.

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270 t1 barracks under 3 t2 OD with support of 43 t1 EP and 4 t2 HC needs approximatly 800k workers . Planets with double population can have more than 2M of workers. So such a defence is only a question of beron and can be started builded right after colonisation and transfer of population and beron on it’s surface. The time needs to build it is about 5 days.
Tell me how to take such a planet. Ecpesially after it was developed by at least a month.

With Ripchee Cruisers…that can drop 1.5 million troops.

Ripchee ships, per ship, can drop 28,000 more troops than anyone else.

270t1 barrackes * 1.5k army = 405k army, then 405k * 8= 3,24M power means certain win against 1,5M assault troops.
then 3 t2 OD means 450damage to all ships withing orbit. Bombing takes 30min means bombers must have survived 9 shoots 450 * 9 = 4050 certain death for any cruisers. (or if i forget about any fat one then just add one more t2 OD). Means bombing is impossible.

You just assault it several times back to back, in the current system.

Every time you assault it, it loses a lot of troops, several assaults would wipe it.

Also, I want to mention, that they almost 1 million people it takes to do this, if that was the case, I would probably just over look it, if it didn’t have a shipyard.

lol. And now the best news - all the planets (exept temporal ones) of the hypothetical player have the same defence. Plus fleets and that he is active. And don’t foget about our main topic - OD effectiveness. They already OP enough to make bombers absolutly useless. There is no any point to even research it. And u suggestion is a try to make the same thing with invasions. lol

Like I have said, I don’t care what they do, but ODS needs to be smarter, instead of just targeting whatever small little things come in.

I realize that they have issues, nothing seems to be balanced, but my original point stands.

As with Invasions, I said 5 minutes, so that the ships would take some damage.

Maybe bombing should on take 5 minutes as well, so the ODS can be effective, but not overly effective.

We should probably have some limits to how many ODS is on a planet as well.

Troops, Troop research, ships, and everything with invasions needs to be re balanced.

We need to be able to defend, but also able to take, but in a way that is more satisfying and balanced than it is now. I shouldn’t have to take 1/7th to 2/7ths of my population just to defend my planets, and I know they can’t actually defend against Syntis or Ripchee at all, unless its a massive planet.

lol

Okey than I have even better solution. ODS needs to be nerfed. Abitily to shoot ships while ships can’t shoot it back is unlogical. And since it’s can be neutralised by scout and it makes stealing of resourses and bombing mechanics meaningless then the perfect solution is to remove ODS’s ability to shoot the ships at all. Anti-invasion rate is already great enough thing for such a small price.
May be there will be funny to see another stationary kind of weapon which can be builded on planets and which can be wrecked in battles against fleets if battles comes.

Gotta agree on that one.

Still to take that away would require a small re think of combat in general to make it work so not happening any time soon methinks.

ODS is too all or nothing right now. And if you can simply brute force it (Brute force = Enemy of skill in games) then its all but useless.

But yeah 1 hour to steal res? While taking a minimum of 2K damage (1 shot/3 mins = 20/hour 100 each = 2000 damage to EACH SHIP IN FLEET) from multi ODS shots? Nah pointless activity nowadays unless you get in real early before those Level 1 ODS go up.

Artillery can shoot at targets that can’t shoot back. I don’t see why orbital defense wouldn’t be the same, they are on the planet, targeting from far away with people/computer sighting for them in space. Then we have shields, I don’t see why we wouldn’t have some kind of defense that would protect them…

So I have to disagree with you both there.

Here is what I know, the combat system is crap, massive imbalance across the board, and the current way to defend the planets is also imbalanced. Its either super hard to take a planet, or you are going to be able to just brute force it.

The only real defense, if you aren’t using like 40-60% of your population to defend, is fleets of ships. However here is what is fucked up, you can launch an invasion with warp 4/9 engines before ships can stop you, or ODS can kill you.

What is the point of defense for smaller planets when you have a fleet that can by pass mines, by pass all fleets except for tiny corvette fleets (or other ripchee fleets), by pass ships in orbit, land an invasion, and then get away without even being attacked.

Then that goes to the next issue, why even have small planets in the game when no one wants to colonize anything under 15-18k? most of them aren’t worth it…

I feel like this can continue going down the rabbit hole of…these things don’t work.

Bottom line, invasions and defense needs to be reworked.

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Seriously? What genre are we in here? You find me a H.A.R.P. Gun capable of hitting a ship in low orbit I’ll listen but right now the Artillery example is a dud. ODS can come in two forms that I could easily see. Missile Based & Laser (Plasma) Based. Missile based systems could be intercepted and or jammed, lasers couldn’t but ought to be defended by shields if we wanted to be at all consistent.

In either case if the ODS had a definite amount of defensive ability then great but as it is is is “Protected” meaning you can never bomb it from orbit period. SO I maintain its its either OP or utterly insufficient for purpose.

Put it this way, if we allow for the existence of any mystery Gun that can fire but not be shot back at: Why would anyone build anything else at all? We’d fill the system with satellites with these baby’s on them we’d put them on our ships we’d not bother about any other weapon tech at all. No ODS as we all agree in our different ways is ill thought out and “nearly right” in many ways but let down by inconsistent logic & usage.

That’s one side of the coin:

Now I’m with you about the stupid inconsistency that Raids to steal take an hour where the ship stays in orbit getting shot at (& Killed as I said as there is NO defence and NO possibility a raiding ship could carry enough armour to survive the experience) Yet a full scale planetary invasion you can drop all the guys off in 30 seconds or less and bugger off while they fight! Madness!

And so easily fixed if they thought for 20 seconds! Try this, make it so deploying (for any purpose) troops takes “X” amount of seconds to deploy per 1000 troopers. So larger force the longer you have to stay under the pounding of the ODS, smaller (raiding force) you take a hit or two then can get clear. Simple easy & LOGICAL… At a rough estimate. Run the numbers with 20 troopers being dropped per second see how that grabs you.
Oh and before folks cry “Syntis advantage!!” Scale it by combat power rather than Numbers then. Physically bigger and or better equipped troopers might need a few seconds longer each than lighter more numerous ones. Think the difference in marching times of Light & Heavy Infantry etc.

I get that they wanted to give “Frigate class” ships a special role, so why in the name of God did they add drop capsules to Corvettes (a subdivision of Frigate) that also get to play with all the special electronics in the game! Better balance would be achieved by taking Drop Capsules from Corvettes But allowing T1 Assault frigates to be “led” by your cloak equipped Corvette for a commando/Raider group… [Irony] Sure, oh wait then there is the Sabre… Nah forget that there is only ONE ship in the game right now that can to absolutely everything very well indeed!

As for small planets being un viable now or at least undesirable. 100% Agree we have traipsed into a bigger is better loop. These are no longer “just desirable” but Mandatory. Hate to tell ya this IDA but that aint balance that’s the opposite…

Oh yeah this is a deep deep rabbit hole alright…! The only (very small) consolation is we are discussing it BEFORE a proper Beta, as this is an interest Killa.

Amen

You know, you just gave me an idea.

To make balance WORK I think we need to standardize everything across the board:

Invasions, Raiding, and Bombing all need to have the exact same time limit.

There need to be a limit of X amount of ODS per planet, maybe attached to the size of the planet, something like one ODS per 5000 KM.

We all need to have a special drop ships, I propose taking our T1 Frigates and actually making them larger and a bit more durable. THESE ARE THE ONLY SHIPS THAT CAN TRANSPORT TROOPS. This means that we can gauge balance, instead of having 17 different that can carry troops, we have 4 different ships that can carry troops.

Then we add a new set of tech, Troop Transport 1, Troop Transport 2, and Troop Transport 3, each one getting progressively larger.

Then we need to also limit how large the military can be based on race, as another balancing factor.

This way everything is much more balanced across the board, and we can play with everyone having small pros and cons.

2 Likes

This I can get behind except for one thing:

Nope coz then the larger planets are yet more desirable! Say rather ONE ODS per planet period as we know them and ADD a ODS laser that does trivial damage (1 point per 2 minutes optionally +1% Anti invasion as well) but you can have as many of the things as you can power up… Shields will protect against this extra damage though.

Also when you say “Same time limit” do you mean a flat timer or a Proportional timer ratioed to the troop strength used as I proposed above? I am not sure I’d want to write out swift(ish) pirate type resource raids if you want say a flat 2 hours/mission. Or have I misunderstood that point please ?

As for military Base balance yes! With you all the way; opening thought is to make Mil bases above a racial threshold increasingly less desirable I think? You have a counter proposal?

Ok how about we split the ODS into 2 types:

Planetary Defense Network - with the T3 for homeworlds, and T1 (25%) and a T2 (50%) for all others. - Limit ONE per planet.

Orbital Defense Network (Shows a small network of guns in space that orbits the planet like the Shipyard) - Limit of 5 per planet.

  • Kinetic ODN - Less Power, Less Man Power, consumes Ordnance

  • Plasma ODN - Requires more power, and more man power, but doesn’t consume Ordnance.

  • KODN - Does damage directly to hulls ever 3 minutes.

  • PODN - Disables shields before doing damage to hull, shields are disabled for several minutes, if attacked while under the effect of a PODN you have less shields.

Raids, Bombardment, and Invasion all take a flat 12 minutes.

We scale the damage of the ODN so that they won’t kill a single fleet, but most likely just weaken said fleet (what you have here is a fleet that will need repairs, or another fleet can swoop in and attack it). ODNs aren’t the “be-all, end-all” to defense, but they are part of a larger key to overall defense.

Also, these aren’t just a single gun shooting a shotgun shell into space. To fix the issue with scouts, instead of resetting every 3 minutes, ODNs provide a pool of damage, either kinetic, or energy based. If a scout comes in, it gets killed, but the rest of the damage is still available to use else where. Every time it fires it resets the full damage regenerated to 3 minutes. So yeah you could still play the “send a scout in,” but you would need a couple of them to get the damage real low, send in your fleets, but you will possibly still take 3 hits worth of full damage.

2 Likes

I like it.

I retain my reservation over the flat 12 minutes but this is good, so would rather try it as presented then tweak if needed, than raise objections further :slight_smile:

I will make a fully suggested write up later, instead of just having it buried this deep.

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