Can we talk about this? Assaulting is like watching paint dry

Assaulting is like watching paint dry.

To start off, I have a separate thread on defending, this is just for assaulting. I get that there’s overlap between the two but this thread will just be too long and too divisive if I pair them together, so I’m not going to.

To start with, thank the stars that in Andradite mines are actually functioning as intended. They certainly exist, and they can offer an advantage if you try and rush through them, but finally at long last they no longer are like watching paint dry to clear with corvettes as your dreads sit outside! Their damage is balanced, and they clear at a reasonably fast rate. Hate on me all you want, but the Andradite mine values & clear times should be exported to Main and that cannot come a moment sooner.

Assaulting however, well, lets just be blunt about it. The system is fundamentally broken and in need of reform. It is miserable to the defenders, it is miserable to the offender, and it is a major problem on all ends. I will leave the defense arguments to my other thread, but on the offense side, I would like to note some immediate problems right off the back.

People justifiably complain about being wiped out while being asleep, or being unable to defend themselves online. These complaints are valid and are a discussion on defense. People on offense justifiably complain about defenders having a massive advantage when online. These complaints are valid and are a discussion on offense.

I’m sorry to the people I’m about to offend. Defenders have too much of an advantage while online. We can have a discussion about people on offense being too powerful in other aspects while respecting this as still being true. This problem, in my opinion, fundamentally stems from a problem with ship production & fleet docks being used as a loophole to cripple an offensive strike.

To elaborate, I am talking about how defenders can launch up to 32 fleets at once from their fleet dock into a swarm of decoys, orbital bombers, & assault fleets in orbit. This in itself would not be an issue if it were not for the fact that these fleets cannot be targeted by the aggressor before launch meaning that someone engaging such a planet, has no choice but to stare, without a break, for an entire hour at a planet, waiting for the defender to spring them with fleets if they’re online. Watching that orbital bombing number go down is like watching paint dry.

To make it clear, I am not arguing against a defender being able to defend themselves, I am arguing against staring at a countdown clock tick down the seconds for an hour straight. Anyone who doesn’t think that’s boring is a liar. Period. This problem is not limited to just fleet docks though, as a planet with a shipyard can also spam out scouts which will engage decoys or disrupt an orbital bombing if it happens to spawn on top of a bomber, forcing the countdown to start all over again. Mankind can also instantly produce ships using their special ability, for the same issue.

Arguments for a reform on the entire offense / defense system probably should be made, albeit I will refrain on mentioning a specific system change, and more on mentioning the problems that such a change should address. I do this because such systems have been made before, and many people whom read this, if not IDA themselves, already have such a replacement system in mind which may work just as well or better than anything I can come up with.

However, I will mention quickly, that there should be, effective immediately, a change put in place which will prohibit the creation of ships when your planet is under orbital bombardment. Even realistically speaking, if an opposing army is bombing your planet from orbit, then under no circumstances are you in control of your planet’s orbit and under no circumstances would you be able to produce ships to attack their bombers. It simply makes no sense.

More than that, fleet docks should operate under similar no launch conditions, or, as I imagine many pro-defenders would prefer, should launch their fleets once an aggressor has entered orbit and destroyed all of the defender’s fleets already in orbit. If you’re going to lose the planet, you’ll lose the fleets anyways, so they may as well go down with a fight, right?

The primary point however, is that until a better invasion system can be created, we should have some sort of easy to implement hotfix to ensure the current system is playable. I think that these fixes are relatively fast and straightforward, even if they are a band-aid.

Another point of contention on the offensive perspective is that of decoys and orbital defense systems. Allow me to point out upfront that anyone about to make an argument that a defender should be able to spam 75+ ODS at once has clearly never fought someone who put 75+ ODS on a planet.
On a purely logical and reasonable level, having to split 75+ single ship decoys to tank ODS fire for an hour because your bombers can’t handle it, is a logistical nightmare and just miserable, not fun.

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Defenders should have a way to defend themselves, but offenders should have a way to attack too. Take the planet above. Syntis have a fleet cap of under 100 fleets. In order to tank all of the ODS fire, use orbital bombers, and have some measure of protection for their fleets, they will be well above the fleet cap even assuming every other fleet is docked (which is not a reasonable assumption). The only way to take such a planet is to work with another player. Now, I’m in an alliance with Nizar (above), so we can tank together, but a system that is impossible for solo players is a system that should not be allowed. People can work together, but people should not be required to work together to take a planet.

There should immediately be a constraint placed on the number of ODS a planet can have to ensure it is within the limits that it is possible for a single player to take. Similarly, whenever resources can be allocated, the ODS system should be completely reworked and revamped. An effective assaulting system should not require a player to split a million single ship decoy fleets in order to take a planet. It’s tedious, boring, and makes no sense. It is nothing more than a player gaming the system as it is built, rather than an effective and reasonable way of taking a planet. Again, I leave discussion on what such a system would be to someone else, I’m just pointing out flaws.

I think I’ll leave it at that for this assault post, it’s long enough. Like I said though, a lot of this overlaps with defense by virtue of the topic, so I’ll leave defense discussions to that post, come check it out.

TL;DR: Assaulting is stupid. Defenders are too weak offline and too strong while online. Fleet docks have an unintended benefit that makes assaulting like watching paint dry, and the ODS system can be abused to the point that solo players have no chance of taking certain planets on their own. Immediate hotfixes are needed to ensure a temporary game balance can be maintained while long term reforms to the assault & defense system should be considered for the future when resources can be allocated.

If anyone has any thoughts or ideas on the subject feel free to comment below. This is part of my “Can we talk about this” series of forum posts. Feel free to check out the rest and share your thoughts!

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Okay…

Do you know what else is a nightmare? Someone showing up at your planet that has 2-3 ODS with 50 fleets.


We can agree on one point, the game needs a lot of re-work in the star system and planet defense/assault department.


off:
Also, using 40 “sacrificial” tank ships to make your 10 fully stacked bomber fleets immune to ODS fire is clearly a known exploit of the ODS targeting mechanics.

According to your other topic you would have to ban yourself :woman_shrugging:, your buddy and almost everyone else for knowingly exploiting a flawed mechanic. Do you want IDA to do that?

Huh?
Exploit?

It’s not an exploit… it’s impossible for all civs to have a cruiser with +3300 armor to be able to tank lvl2 ODS all by itself

Or would you rather shoot yourself in the leg and just use a cruiser with only 2k armor
Have it park in orbit and die before it can get off a shot?

U don’t understand tha main point. I will explain how it works. Obviously this is not an exploit. Because. If that was I’m using it - than yes, of course that is axploit. But when AE doing this it’s a nice and proper game feature. Very simple.

I really don’t get why is the baseline for how planet bombing should happen is not loosing a single ship.

You have 40 defense installations that shoot at 40 different ships that has no weapons and pose no threat to the planet. During that 10 fully stacked bombing fleets charge their weapons. Then, even before the 40 ODS could destroy the 40 non-threat ships the planet goes Boom!

Defenses working as intended, right? Protecting the planet much. Intentions behind the mechanics are completely circumvented. That is an exploit in my book.

Yeah, I noticed a similar pattern. It is really sad.

Nah c’mn don’t listen idioit’s poit of view. Outscape is not even a game. It’s a project which is far from finished vershion. There is impossible to exlpoit anything when the project is in such a state because everything(or near to everything) IS NOT WORKED AS INTENDED

Haha, but no

The way IDA designed that feature it is the only way

1- its a fact not all not civilizations can have cruisers tanky enough to take hits on their own
2- that means if you’re ever to consider bombing, you have to have something to tank the ODS damage
You are forced to… No other choice

(do we agree this far?)

3- when you’re making said tank for ODS ofc you’re not going to have it weak enough to not be able to last 1h, you want it to last as long as possible

With all that said, I would prefer a better system
One that is fair for both attackers and defenders

One that doesn’t force the attacker(s) into micromanaging +50 single ships to get away with something
And one that doesn’t make defenders to use half their population and tons of beron to build that many ods just cuz they are afraid

1: true 2: true 3: true

At the end: ODS rendered useless and pointless.
Do we agree?

Also, by your own logic
1, IDA designed planetary mechanics in a certain way. (true)
2, City centers provide bonuses during labor shortage and without power. (it is/was true)
3, you can spam build city centers for eternity for insane bonuses. (it can be done)

At the end: It completely defeats the point of labor and power requirements and limits.
Do we agree?


The only difference between the two is one is a widely accepted exploit, the other is not.

The other difference is first is a very usefull ‘exploit’, the other is not.

Why is insane credit income and pop growth useless?

That was fixed. I’m taking about pop growth which wasn’t. It’s useless because when u will make such a planet (40M beron is not a joke) all ur planets will be full by their own growth/ And what u plan to do with all that ppls after this point? conserve in transports? with no purpose?

And talking about credit income - 1) it was possible for syntis only while. 2) in theory if robo player were start to build it instead of proper city center - specialised planets than yes but actually I didn’t that because I have idea that it can gives the credits for Syntis. When I check that exploit first time I were PR and didn’t see any nice credit income. And this time in Antradite we had conversation abou this topic and a question about if Syntis can earn credits trough this. So when I finally have useless beron I’ve done the expirement and it was bad from the first looking - 900k cr/h for 40M of beron. But then I though ‘w8 a minute what if syntis will earn credit from such a planet not only from their own race but also from other races’ and add the cats and achieved 11M and happily screenshot this. And right in this moment all that rucus in forum started. So in fact I had no time to earn credits from this before devs react and fix it. As well as no one else used it judging by lb - so if no one earn any profit - that was useless also.

I see, thanks for the explanation.

Wouldn’t you be able to keep all of your other planets constantly at double the max pop by transporting them from your pop farm?

I’m not that crazy to do this boring work. But I’m guess if play cats or snakes and make such a planet in a system with high credit income to maintain overpop - this manipualtion will x3 ur credit income. Perharps x2 for humans and almost nothing for robo (since robots earn credit from cats+robo planets)

P.S. So with ur help we find how to use it. Now I can say - it is not useless.

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This is not an issue of defense/offense but rather that ODS and bombing are both broken. Just the mere fact that it is easy to take a planet when your opponent is offline but hard when he is online is just a clear sign that the system is broken.

That being said, you should never lose a planet due to being offline. That is why invasion timer is good, althought it is too short for people who want to sleep and work, and the reason invasion is broken is because of ODS.

Was it not for ODS you would be able to blockade a planet and protect your invasion fleet and the defender have to break the blockade through fleet action. But since ODS will ping fleets in orbit you have no choice but to either bomb or break orbit.

Bombing is broken because it takes 1 hour. No way in hell is that enough for people being offline. When he is online it is broken because of ODS not allowing you to protect your bombing fleets with other war fleets.

ODS needs to be reworked and so does bombing. If bombing worked like invasion and ODS didn’t fire at ships in orbit then both could work in a way that is balanced for both offline and online defense. I.e. through planetary blockades which protects both invasion and bombing unless it is broken by defenders fleets who should have ample time to defend if he is offline.

Launching from space docks is not a problem in itself but again it is because you cannot have defending fleets in orbit, due to ODS, so they will go straight for the bombers. If you could protect/guard your bombing fleets by your own war fleets then again it boils down to fleet vs fleet action which decides if a bombing or invasion is ultimately successful and that is imo the way it should be.

It is not an exploit. It is just that the targeting algorithm of ODS is shit. It should focus fire bombers/invasion ships but instead it just spreads out its fire on all/any ship which makes it easily beatable. ODS, in its current form, is an abomination.

One is a widely used work around, while the other is an exploit.

The last major modification to the ODS was in A3 I believe, changing the ODS from a sole structure that would fire once every 30 minutes pretty much destroying everything in orbit to more or less what we have now. Since then, this was at best a lesser known work around while we were waiting for better mechanics to arrive and it was given any time any player asked about the ODS. The current ODS was more or less acceptable for the time because there were, at least we the players thought so, more important updates such as changes to the minefields, bugs, and alliances amongst other things.