Blog: Dev Diary #28 - Achievements

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With regard to guard fleets I like this point: 2) Enable guard fleets to avoid minefields (T2/T3 planetary scanners would be able to detect minefields).

Thanks for the post but i think 3 ly radius for guard fleets is too small. Make it at least 5. Also, i prefer the minefields to have a significant damage nerf. Make a t3 minefied 100 to 200 damage.

By the way, are we still getting news on the new atd galaxy and those balance changes? I notice main 1 was supposed to be closed last month but its still up.

Guards and mines:
Personally I’m fine either way

About the guards fleets themselves

  • 1- If it’s a fleet that uses fuel, will the guard fleet auto refill on fuel when it heads back?

  • 2- if its a fleet that uses ordenance weapons, will it auto refill on ordenance?

  • 3- I assume that guard mode can be activated only whe the fleet is standing in the orbit of the planet that has the building on it?

  • 4-if an enemy fleet enters and leaves the guard area, will the fleet continue to chase the enemy fleet or will it go back?

And I’m glad to see the diary again :slight_smile:

Here are my suggestions for the minefield changes:

T1 50 Damage | Time to deploy: 100% | are visible to all players at all times
T2 250 Damage | Time to deploy: 500% | are visible to all players at all times
T3 150 Damage | Time to deploy: 250% | can only be seen by planetary scanners and mine sweepers

also the sweeper tech needs to be much lower in tech cost compared to minefield tech so new players cannot be mined in without any way to remove them for days


regarding guard fleet intercepting range: give us different buildings:

System Defense Network T1: Fleets on guard setting will intercept hostile ships at 5ly distance
System Defense Network T2: Fleets on guard setting will intercept hostile ships at 10ly distance
System Defense Network T3: Fleets on guard setting will intercept hostile ships at 20ly distance

That way players can customise their defense grid. Guard fleets will always use the highest ly distance. Also you guys have to consider the time it takes for a guard fleet to move from the planet orbit to system edge in order to actually intercept at warp speed which might not happen due to the lower in system speed.

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Reduce their damage significantly. I think the right role for mine fields would be to only soften up fleets for future engagements and not outright killing them. A weapon that can be fitted on a cheap frigate/corvette should never be able to deal that much damage.

The problem with this is that this “avoiding” will be by an AI vs a human. And a human will be able to figure out how to lay minefield against an AI algorithm. Better to make the guardians immune to minefields and be done with it.

Or just not allow any minefields be put in/near guarded areas. Makes sense not to be able to lay minefields in someone elses guarded area.

Rather then T2/T3 planetary scanners seeing minefields just make it so all T2/T3 scanners see minefields and do away with the mine detector module.

And guard fleets alone are still just going to be cannon fodder. Battles take next to no time, so if minefields are nerfed into being a non-deterrent players are going to be steamrolled. Rip player-base if the new style spawning is used…

And as I have said in the past many of the achievements are going to be exploited and are not even a challenge.

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ive been hoping for a long time that planet scanners t2/3 can do something

mine detection seems nice
i was hoping for cloak detection too (however idk how that would effect the balance of the game)

Thinking we will be able to setup guard fleets to keep a cloak detector on and fueled 24/7 so that’s going to help in stopping cloaked sneak attacks and raiding.

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Reduce their damage a little, but make it that each time a minefield deals damage its density decreases. So a minefield has a maximum amount of damage it can deal. Unlike now, where a minefield can deal unlimited damage as long as it remains.

I support this option, it looks better. I hope it will work based on how much damage was actually dealt to a fleet and not just on [ it hit something ] => [ -1% density ].

Also, with this second option would decay timer be removed from mine fields?

I just saw the cost of these guard fleet control buildings and its personnel cost is way, way off the charts. You should encourage people to build this so they can start getting some offline protection but with this oppressive cost of 100.000 personnel, you have to make a choice between AI controlling your fleets while offline and compromising the usefulness of your colonies online/offline.

How do you justify such cost? I mean if these buildings gave your guardian fleets some significant buffs, which they should if AI is to stand a chance against a human players, then maybe you could justify it but this much just for AI controlling your units in a very limited area of 3 LY?

Imo this is a bad design decision which will reduce the usefulness of this mechanic and make people less inclined to use it. Why punish people for wanting some degree of offline protection? Reduce it to 1.000 personnel, no reason for this building to be expensive as AI controlling up to 10 fleets in 3 LY area is not such an advantage to justify the high cost.

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https://wiki.outscape.net/Guard_Fleet_Control

Have to agree the general personnel cost and small area coverage as well as the limited fleets under guard control will do nothing to bolster a system against a large attack while a player is offline.

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i have to agree here, the personal cost, the limited ly radius and the fleet limit are three seperate points that all in its own make this feature going to fail

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I concur with Yamota, especially regarding T1 version. I’d recommend a lower starting personnel cost and increasing it with each upgrade. Possibly start off with 10k and grow that to 200k at T5. Costs in Beron and credits seem reasonable except at T5, I think that should be lowered to say 1 mil credits.

I would anticipate different costs between the main galaxy and the ATD galaxy, for the main galaxy the cost is too high for certain.

If guard fleets are to even be remotely successful as a valid defense then the fleet parameters need to change.

Player guard fleets shouldn’t count to the players fleet cap.

Players guard fleets should have a higher amount of controlled fleets. 5/10/15/20/25 would be more suitable as a defense. Even these numbers could be defeated.

Player guard fleets might need a specialized fleet format to be a real deterrent. Yes the everything in a line formation the newbie protection ai guard fleets get to use.

The guard fleet tech should probably unlock a pre designed ship for use as the guard fleets flagship. All guard fleets would have to use one of these.

Player guard fleets need a +1 speed boost minimum.

The guard fleet building could/should have it’s own fleet dock to store a limited amount of backup guard fleets. Or the not yet implemented space dock could serve this function.

The personnel cost for the building needs to start low and cap at 50k for the t5 version. Planetary defense overall has many variations (military bases,ODS, Guard fleets) and power needs that it’s getting out of hand to be able to place all of it on a planet.

Integration into the tech tree. The defense part of the tech tree needs to be reworked some. As an example the bunker tech was just tacked on at the end and not properly scaled into the tree. Lower tier defense buildings should be re-searchable early on so they are available to the players sooner.

Basically @joe implement what you have to get the game moving along and test this but plan on the need for major updates to make it useful.

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I agree with all these points and I would like to add something. Unless you have Deep Mind self learning AI controlling these guardian fleets then they will always, always be at a big disadvantage against a human player. We all know this from playing countless single player games. AI is predictable and easy to exploit.

So how does single player games deal with this? They let the AI “cheat”, i.e. give it advantages that a human opponent does not have. And that is what is needed here if guardian fleets are to be successful.

So I suggest that all guardian fleets been given these buffs:

  • 50% speed boost OR allow the guardian fleets to travel at boosted warp at all times. Otherwise human opponents will just lure the guardian fleets around and around just by going in and out of the guarded zone.
  • Mine immunity or make it so no minefields can not be put inside/near guarded areas. No matter what algorithm you use for guardian fleets to “avoid” minefields then it will always be exploitable because it is, again, AI vs Human.
  • The building needs to drastically reduce in cost. Offline defence is a feature that should be provided at no/little cost. Making it so you have to compromise your colonies for something that should be an integral part of the game is a bad idea and will discourage people from using this mechanic.
  • If a guardian fleet does get destroyed, and it will, then make it so they cannot be farmed. So when a guardian fleets get destroyed, then the resources, which would have been left for loot, will be instead deposited at the colony where the guardian fleet control building is. That way you still lose resources but a human opponent cannot farm your guardian fleets as they will gain nothing. Also make it so you get reduced warfare points when destroying guardian fleets, just like AI pirates should be like.
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First Blood: Win 1 fleet battle against another player or pirate

Considering a pirate spawns in your home solar when you do, I dont see how the 1st part would even be possible, heck it would be quite the feat to kill a player’s ship before any pirate. Delete the pirate part or make that a seperate one please.

Before we nerf minefields, we wanted to check what option you preferred:

  • Reduce their damage significantly
  • Reduce their damage a little, but make it that each time a minefield deals damage its density decreases. So a minefield has a maximum amount of damage it can deal. Unlike now, where a minefield can deal unlimited damage as long as it remains.

While each of these would reduce the effectiveness of the strategy, neither does anything to its actual function. The minefield damaging fleets should reduce the remaining time and strength of the minefield but to side step that function I could just lay 3 minefields on top of each other. Greatly reducing the effctiveness of the minefield then forces the question why have it at all if it only does 50 damage per tick? It’s not going to do much of anything anyway, the dps of a single endgame ship is much higher than 50.

I intended to continue talking about minefields but I’m still too worn out on the topic.

  • Build a guard fleet control on a colony to establish a guard zone around that star system (3LY radius)

As stated above 100k required pop is much too high particularly early game and even into mid game. Late game, I would have to question it, but may still go against it depending on improvements made to the whole situation. Undeniably, I would not have one of these on most of my planets well into endgame, albeit, I would still have a few.

My issues with the currently purposed concept is mostly that it shouldnt even have a requirement at all because an omnipresent player who already boasts enough of an advantage would not bother with this structure while the more average player would be tripped up (read spend valuable resources including HR, res, and RP) by using it. Imo, it makes more sense to merge this structure with another (if indeed it needs to be a strcuture), but I would prefer it was a simple function of a colony. If it needs to be a seperate structure, can it be operated by the military forces? If there is the question of setting up a colony just to have this function someplace and therefore needs some requirement, can the requirement be based on the population of the planet and not require it to be staffed? IE the planet needs to have 400k pop but require 200 personnel. Is there a reason this function can’t be tied to radar stations which seems like it would be a more obvious function.

My second issue is that some planets are within 3 LY of a neighbor’s colony, where a single transport can pull the defense forces from 1 side and then the responding defense from the other causing an accidental automated war. Why not just NAP? Because whats the point of having defensive forces if your just going to ally up with everyone around you and play Farmville removing the point of the automated defense in the first place. The defense areas need to be more flexible, such as defending territories or some other arbitrary line and not a static, unchangeable radius. Other issues and useful functions to boot.

If I find the energy I may post more, in the mean time, can this addition be pushed off another week? I dont think anyone is hurting for this update.

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Which is about the same dps of the ship which laid the minefield. Minefields deal way too much damage for the risk/cost for laying them and they need to be nerfed. Either that or require a fleet of cruisers/battleships, which it does for planetary invasions, to lay the highest level minefield.

Cost/risk vs reward for minefields is crazy out of wack and need to be adjusted.

No has ever build a mine with the intention of it doing a tiny amount of damage so they can fight what set it off later at another location. Mines are designed to blow the crap out of and kill anything that sets them off.