Allowing fleets to perform all available actions

Here is a request involving fleets with multiple abilities. Currently, I have a fleet that includes 2 ships. One has a cloak detector. The other has a mine detector and a minelayer. Yet, if I want to have a fleet with the ability to detect cloaked ships, detect mines, and lay mines, that’s impossible with the current button layout. It seems that the buttons available are hard coded to be in the same position at all times. I understand the reasoning for this, but if that’s the case, could we allow all buttons to be displayed around the circle? Currently, my fleet can only detect cloaked ships and lay mines.
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Originally, I believed that only a flagship’s abilities were the ones you could select, but I now know this isn’t the case. For instance, mining fleets are able to mine even if the ship with mine modules isn’t the flagship.

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Mining fleets are the exception, not the rule. It is designed this way so that it would be more difficult to perform those actions. Granted not vastly more difficult, but it is the friction that makes the game go round.

I believe we just had a request to go back to what we had in Alpha 2 here…

If we could have some explanation at least why fleets are incapable of using their specials concurrently it would help. Theres no logic to it I can readily see. But could be persuaded…

Consider the OPs suggestion heartily seconded AND when are you going to revoke the awful, Hated, and despised Freewarp or Full boost follishness. AS you promised @joe We’ve tested it at your request for a year plus and I cant think of anyone that prefers it over the previous select your own speed option.

Taken from :

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I understand that this game isn’t meant to be an idle game, but we need more things to do, not busy work. Give us quality tasks to do. :slight_smile:

Either we need to have all actions available without splitting fleets, or make it easier to split fleets. ie, just 1 click to split fleets in half, then half again. I don’t want to go into a fleet split, choose my ships, name the fleet what I want (and then have it change back to the previous “fleet_split” name) every time I want to scan for mines.

I’m thinking along the lines of a US Navy carrier fleet. Different ships perform various actions to support the entire fleet. They don’t split up every time they do their specific action.

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I wasn’t around for the speed selection issue, but I know that would affect the current engine designs as either 9 full warp or 4 free warp (for instance). Were you previously able to perform all functions available to a fleet?

I assume it’s to create some strategic tradeoffs: I can have a fleet lead by a battleship with 16 ships in the fleet so it can adequately defend itself OR I can have a fleet lead by a minelayer, which can lay mines but can’t really defend itself well. You can’t have a 16-ship fleet that lays mines, detects or cloaks.

This does make mine laying / detecting / sweeping into a more vulnerable job. Whether that’s good for the game or not I’m not sure. The big problem I see is that it’s another “online advantage” situation. If I can be online and keep an eye out then I can split my fleet up to do tasks and run away or regroup if I spot an enemy fleet coming. Offline, though, it just leaves my ships vulnerable.

It ends up just being one more way that someone who can access the game all day has another big advantage over someone who can’t.

I suspect my cloaked cruiser lead minlayer fleets may have been part of the reason they changed it… sadly though I was not alone!

How would the ability to select warp speeds 1-9 affect current designs except to make them more useful?

Consider a scout engine ship is DEAD if it hits a mine belt coz it cant slow down to warp one and attempt to pick its way through it… Nah its slowest speed is 4 and than means its a bug on a windshield when it finds a mine…

Back then we could make much more efficient uses of our fuel tankage as we could say cruise at warp 6 instead of 7 on a DM drive an cover a lot further without having to go back and restart the journey as we do now by flying part way at warp 7 then restarting progress at freewarp 1 when they get to the end of the fuel…

In fact I have had to laugh of late as they switch around fuel efficiencies over and over when had they allowed us to pick our speeds they probably wouldn’t have needed to do that. Honestly that change MADE work for the Devs like few others have. Plus there are dozens of threads asking for the change back and or even suggesting tweaks on how to bring it into the correct UI - and no I didnt write all of them (some sure!)

But it’s not the flagship that determines the abilities available. My flagship is a corvette with a cloak detector. The second ship in my fleet has a mine layer and a mine detector. In the screenshot above, the fleet can perform actions of the second ship. So it doesn’t make sense. That’s why I think it’s ultimately a programmatic error.

You may be right its an error, but it was (apparently) built in as we queried that extensively at the time of change. It made no sense to any player then and makes none now and is one of the examples why I maintain my stance that over all we have a worse game than we did a couple of years go!

Worse game in play options that is, and a worse game with more “features”, but still a game thats worse in actual play mechanics and tactical options.

I do understand that signs indicated giving a single fleet the ability to do every special function was leading to Baaad things such multi battleship fleets that could arrive under cloak, mine the battlefield (while avoiding defending fields with detectors). So they made it that only a single “special” could be initialised by the fleets flagship…

Except they didn’t; they apparently “forgot” about mine-layers leading to this confusion.

A far far far better way of avoiding the all might Multi Battleship group with all superpowers available would have been to limit the amount of ships of a given type to a single fleet : like the navy’s of all countries seem to do in the real world… But that idea and several others with similar net effect, alas was never explored and instead we have the cascading Kludge we have now.

Here’s the Old Ui an-noted somewhat, the if a fleet had a second special it would appear elsewhere around the wheel. If I could I’d have go back to this in a heartbeat as it solves so many of these issues.
OLD%20UI

It was very bad change and led to so many issues in game play. I remain hopeful as folks intelligently point out these flaws who had no experience of what came before will show the designers that they had it right and over simplified something that the player base is saying needs more depth!

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If the real goal was to prevent stealthed fleets lead by (and full of) battleships then an alternative fix that also makes sense may be to just vary the cost of the cloak by what’s in the fleet.

Like it costs 800 fuel for the first tier cloak but that’s assuming you have 1 ship in the fleet: the ship with the cloak. Other ships cost 800 x their tech level. So a single tech 3 battleship added to the fleet will raise the cloak cost to 800 + (800x3) = 3200 fuel.

To cloak a fleet consisting of, say:
4 tech 3 ships
12 tech 2 ships (one of which has the cloak)
would cost 800x3x4 + 800x2x11 + 800 = 28000 fuel. If you use the third tier cloak then replace 800 with 1600 and it’s 56000 fuel.

Doesn’t make it impossible to cloak a full warfleet but does make it costly, both in actual fuel costs and the fact that you have to burn a lot of your module slots on fuel containers to do it.

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Another great suggestion. I could work with that certainly!

I think what grindz my gears is that you have to swap flagships to use different specials, I could live with using one at a time or as you propose having to burn a megaton of fuel to activate them on all ships in the fleet but not the
"you-must-swap-actual-flag-to-use-this coz-100m-distance-change-is-vital-for-the-tech-to-work!"

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With the current insufficient cloak detection methods, I think preventing large ships like battleships from cloaking is still more important.

In addition, this makes mines more useful. Since they prevent large fleets from entering a system until they have been cleared. If not, every fleet would just equip a minesweeper for 400 Ol and mines would be totally useless.

I agree with you in regard to how it is now. But I think this is the real problem with outscape right now. We patch on what we have instead of designing for a better solution.

10+ Battleships & a handful of specialist ships is massively over powered yes agree 100%

But the solution isn’t to prevent you from using your specialist ships all at once. No its prevent such unrealistic formations…
A Battleship singular would in the real word tend to be the core of an attack group. It’d be pretty rare seeing several in the same formation. Thats where the game design fails big time.

One Battleship surrounded by a half dozen destroyer or Frigate class vessels ought to be a formidable fleet I don’t think anyone would disagree. But right now we have so much more than that and that’s whats unbalancing things and making the DEVS make poor choices that limit other tactical options elsewhere. Instead of seeing the root of the problem is that there is almost no point in late game having anything but Battleships for you main attack groups.

So the ball of death rolls across any player who can not also field a max stack of Battleships (Or Dreadnoughts or Cloaked Sabers in the case of the furries) … Making mines the only possible defence!

Realistic fleets and realistic combat options will make for a much more satisfying game than simply banning the ability to do something except one ship at a time.

Its not the ability to use all specials thats wrong. Fleet formations are wrong in themselves.

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Have suggested battle-groups in the past where a few fleets could be combined so you could have corvettes out front giving vision/cover, frigates and destroyers as a second line providing interception and defense and then heavy’s in the rear with the firepower. Issue is they would end up very overpowered.

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Oh and you would need a fleet admiral class captain to build a battle-group around.

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More so than 16x Battleships which is what we have right now? Thats a scary thought and one I am just not seeing…

I think when I first threw this out I was thinking of a 6-8 ship limit on any fleet but up to three fleets could be combined roughly as you suggest in a “Flotilla” or “Task Force” (Tha name is negotiable LOL!) that would yield 18 ships for say PR & Synt 21 ish for Rips and Mankind with their smaller ships go to 24.

A lot of ships certainly but in three distinct groups Each group could activate a special power that was good for the whole Task force (perhaps and an incredible fuel cost as per the suggestion above from @Slamz) But you still would not see more than an estimated 12 Battleships in the whole lot which is 25% LESS than what we have now…?

I think the only way to counter the “Ball of death” problem is to have a Warp 10 speed nuke, that costs similar to 12 battleships. Fired manually.

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I think we need to do away with ships having a fleet limit and using captians to do the job. As an example a player could have say three admirals that can multi task battle-groups, 15 regular captains, 20 scout raiding captains, and 30 civilian captain for cargo duties.

Not my preference but a fine suggestion and one I would certainly applaud if it got the green light.

Literally anything is better than what we have now and stuff like this is not merely better but great!

Having an “Apocalypse” missile defence is also a very fun thought! Suddenly small cheap ships have a place again and Dreadnoughts can walk warily as well.

@zoezeo Even so when you said cost I am guessing you meant Creds & Physical resources as well yes? I’d still only have ONE of these per system max and the build time would need to be 12x typical Battleship cost. Also make in only as fast as your fastest engine unlocked (9 max at present) Even so FUN!!

The old UI shared by Zathabar is amazing (just for the buttons, not talking about variable speeds now). I never knew that’s what the game had before. I’d appreciate it immensely if we could move back to that.

Regarding the ball of death, perhaps flagships could field a certain number of picket ships and other support ships. This would be similar to ships having small, medium, or large slots. Or make it so that flagships are just that–flagships. You can’t have more than one flagship in a fleet at a time. Smaller fleets made up of destroyers make sense, but larger fleets of only battleships or carriers don’t typically occur. Ship designs should also be more specialized to prevent using one ship type only. ie, only allow torpedoes to be mounted on cruisers.

Unfortunately, I’m only good for ideas, not getting down to the implementation and percentages.

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